From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 00:04:06 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 00:04:06 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world Message-ID: Is this thing on? Love, John. -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 00:18:05 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 00:18:05 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since when did we reply off-list and top-post around here..? :) On 06/08/17 00:14, Lewys Martin wrote: > Go to sleep it's midnight > > On 6 Aug. 2017 12:13 am, "John Elliot V" > wrote: > > Is this thing on? > > Love, > John. > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 03:17:12 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 03:17:12 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 01:02, Xu Lian wrote: > ProgSoc is dead! Don't be silly. ProgSoc can't die! :) -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From xw901103 at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 03:29:20 2017 From: xw901103 at gmail.com (Xu Lian) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 03:29:20 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60A9845E-0910-4BBE-8384-66A6E8A6B720@gmail.com> It was dead long time ago. > On Aug 6, 2017, at 03:17, John Elliot V wrote: > > On 06/08/17 01:02, Xu Lian wrote: >> ProgSoc is dead! > > Don't be silly. ProgSoc can't die! :) > > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 03:35:15 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 03:35:15 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <60A9845E-0910-4BBE-8384-66A6E8A6B720@gmail.com> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <60A9845E-0910-4BBE-8384-66A6E8A6B720@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 03:29, Xu Lian wrote: > It was dead long time ago. Nah, it's just being rebooted... Someone go get us a room! -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From xw901103 at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 01:02:50 2017 From: xw901103 at gmail.com (Xu Lian) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 01:02:50 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> No, ProgSoc is dead! > On Aug 6, 2017, at 00:04, John Elliot V wrote: > > Is this thing on? > > Love, > John. > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 03:57:25 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 03:57:25 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded Message-ID: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> So a bunch of us are concerned about our languishing society, and we have convened private discussions concerning what to do about that. Hopefully we can relocate those private discussions to the ProgSoc mailing list, where I feel they belong. Given the number of people who still care about the fate of ProgSoc I'm quietly confident that we will endure the ProgSoc Winter and live to see the ProgSoc Spring. Might I suggest that in crises such as this the best course of action is to go to the pub? Thursday 24th August, Bar Broadway [1], from 5:30pm. My shout. We will discuss what needs to be done and who is going to do it and when. In the mean time if you have any thoughts or ideas I for one would be happy to hear them, on-list. Love, John. p.s. A bottle of whisky to the first person who can identify the referent of the three puns in this message. :) [1] https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.8843067,151.2022272,19.5z?hl=en -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Sun Aug 6 09:19:03 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 09:19:03 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: > In the mean time if you have any thoughts or ideas I for one would be > happy to hear them, on-list. Why not *this* Thursday (10th August), same time, same place? And EVERY THURSDAY after that? (same time, not necessarily same place) Therein lies part of the solution! Tom On 06/08/17 03:57, John Elliot V wrote: > So a bunch of us are concerned about our languishing society, and we > have convened private discussions concerning what to do about that. > > Hopefully we can relocate those private discussions to the ProgSoc > mailing list, where I feel they belong. > > Given the number of people who still care about the fate of ProgSoc I'm > quietly confident that we will endure the ProgSoc Winter and live to see > the ProgSoc Spring. > > Might I suggest that in crises such as this the best course of action is > to go to the pub? Thursday 24th August, Bar Broadway [1], from 5:30pm. > My shout. > > We will discuss what needs to be done and who is going to do it and when. > > In the mean time if you have any thoughts or ideas I for one would be > happy to hear them, on-list. > > Love, > John. > > p.s. A bottle of whisky to the first person who can identify the > referent of the three puns in this message. :) > > [1] https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.8843067,151.2022272,19.5z?hl=en > > > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > From jacobdunk at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 09:51:34 2017 From: jacobdunk at gmail.com (Jacob D) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 09:51:34 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: I can only see at most two references... ProgSoc winter: gotta be GOT Go to the pub in a crisis: Maybe shaun of the dead? No whiskey for me! Cheers, Jacob On 6 Aug. 2017 3:59 am, "John Elliot V" wrote: So a bunch of us are concerned about our languishing society, and we have convened private discussions concerning what to do about that. Hopefully we can relocate those private discussions to the ProgSoc mailing list, where I feel they belong. Given the number of people who still care about the fate of ProgSoc I'm quietly confident that we will endure the ProgSoc Winter and live to see the ProgSoc Spring. Might I suggest that in crises such as this the best course of action is to go to the pub? Thursday 24th August, Bar Broadway [1], from 5:30pm. My shout. We will discuss what needs to be done and who is going to do it and when. In the mean time if you have any thoughts or ideas I for one would be happy to hear them, on-list. Love, John. p.s. A bottle of whisky to the first person who can identify the referent of the three puns in this message. :) [1] https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.8843067,151.2022272,19.5z?hl=en -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ _______________________________________________ Progsoc mailing list Progsoc at progsoc.org http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 10:22:49 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:22:49 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 09:19, Tomislav Bozic wrote: >> In the mean time if you have any thoughts or ideas I for one would be >> happy to hear them, on-list. > > Why not *this* Thursday (10th August), same time, same place? Because: a) I'm super busy at the moment, and b) I wanted to give plenty of notice so people can come. > And EVERY THURSDAY after that? (same time, not necessarily same place) Because: a) it's difficult and annoying for me to get to the city, and b) it's difficult and annoying for me to get home from the city. > Therein lies part of the solution! That would be great if you could re-institute Thursday nights, with or without a room, but please don't look to me to support you in that. I'm less "meatspace" and more "VR", FWIW. But in an emergency I can get to the city. So I'm considering August 24th as "emergency". I picked Thursday night for "traditional" reasons. Hopefully we can figure some shit out and keep our dear society kicking along. Things I think are important: a) having a room, and b) having intelligent and interesting discussion on this list, and c) keeping new members connected to old members for the sake of professional development, mentoring, "cultural continuity", and, dare I say it, "networking"; and d) having some actual programming projects, and e) having some infrastructure to support actual programming projects (personally I'm not a fan of outsourcing such things to GitHub, we're big people, we can support a server or two). I guess "events" and "meetups" are important too, but those are not within my mandate. I can't do much about acquiring a room, but I do think that is particularly important. With regard to d), I was thinking I might drag my JsPHP project [1] over to ProgSoc and see if I can get people to collaborate on it with me. I started it ages ago, and I think it's fun (not necessarily "important" or "useful", although I have happily relied on some of its outputs in the past). It dearly needs some love and attention. The goal of the JsPHP project is to be a web-based IDE (taking a TDD(-ish) approach) for a JavaScript library. At the moment that JavaScript library is an implementation of the PHP API in JavaScript, although we are by no means restricted in keeping it limited to that scope. The original upstream project [1] has branched out to other APIs now, too. That's all I've got. For now. Love, John. [1] https://www.jsphp.com/ [2] http://locutus.io/ -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 10:25:32 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:25:32 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 09:51, Jacob D wrote: > I can only see at most two references... > > ProgSoc winter: gotta be GOT GOT == Game of Thrones? Not even close. :P > Go to the pub in a crisis: Maybe shaun of the dead? Negative. I think the "pub in crisis" thing might be original research... :P -- it's not one of the puns! > No whiskey for me! No. But if you come to the pub I will buy you a few beers. :) I thought Bozic would get all three the minute he woke up. Perhaps he's just being charitable and letting others have a chance..? ;) -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Sun Aug 6 10:49:50 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:49:50 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: >> Why not *this* Thursday (10th August), same time, same place? > > Because: > > a) I'm super busy at the moment, and > b) I wanted to give plenty of notice so people can come. > >> And EVERY THURSDAY after that? (same time, not necessarily same place) > > Because: > > a) it's difficult and annoying for me to get to the city, and > b) it's difficult and annoying for me to get home from the city. I didn't mean JUST YOU, John. No way am I expecting you to come down from the wilderness each and every week. I meant it as a call to arms for EVERYONE to come on out and get this club happening again! Regular Thursday nights can only happen if more than one person gets involved... > I'm less "meatspace" and more "VR", FWIW. Yeah, "VR" ;) [1] > Things I think are important: > a) having a room, and > b) having intelligent and interesting discussion on this list, and > c) keeping new members connected to old members for the sake of > professional development, mentoring, "cultural continuity", and, dare > I > say it, "networking"; and > d) having some actual programming projects, and > e) having some infrastructure to support actual programming projects > (personally I'm not a fan of outsourcing such things to GitHub, we're > big people, we can support a server or two). All of the above are definitely important. In order of importance for me right now: c), b), d), e) and finally a). While a) is important and is a great way to foster the hackerspace-like culture ProgSoc once had, everything else you have mentioned here can -- and unfortunately for the time being, must -- be done without a room. d) and e) are of importance. In fact, Object 3.4 of our Constitution[2] exhorts us "[t]o develop useful, new and non-commercial computer programs to be exported to other installations for non-profit purposes." > I guess "events" and "meetups" are important too, but those are not > within my mandate. They are most definitely within the mandate of the current membership still at uni, however, and I think is the most important thing for the club right now. That's pretty much what Object 3.1 ("Encourage, foster, promote, develop, extend and govern interest and expertise in Computer Programming within the University.") is all about. Tom [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTAbra5kyD0 [2] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Constitution From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Sun Aug 6 10:50:05 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:50:05 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: <7ec02ae5-adac-1ff1-1c17-972ee6fbf8f8@progsoc.org> > I thought Bozic would get all three the minute he woke up. Perhaps he's > just being charitable and letting others have a chance..? ;) Yeah, sure, that's what I was doing. Besides, I've got plenty of whisky and other spirits in my collection for now. Tom From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 11:17:50 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 11:17:50 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 10:49, Tomislav Bozic wrote: > I didn't mean JUST YOU, John. No way am I expecting you to come down > from the wilderness each and every week. I meant it as a call to arms > for EVERYONE to come on out and get this club happening again! Heh. Well I do value your enthusiasm, but I think you might need to temper that a little. You might find that others aren't as enthusiastic as you are... perhaps easy does it for now. >> I'm less "meatspace" and more "VR", FWIW. > > Yeah, "VR" ;) [1] I didn't get the reference. I'll have to check that out later. I'm experiencing an issue with my sound card at the moment [1] (any ideas anyone..?) so I can't watch it on my main workstation, and there's a movie playing on my laptop. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/08/msg00195.html >> Things I think are important: >> a) having a room, and >> b) having intelligent and interesting discussion on this list, and >> c) keeping new members connected to old members for the sake of >> professional development, mentoring, "cultural continuity", and, dare > I >> say it, "networking"; and >> d) having some actual programming projects, and >> e) having some infrastructure to support actual programming projects >> (personally I'm not a fan of outsourcing such things to GitHub, we're >> big people, we can support a server or two). > > All of the above are definitely important. In order of importance for me > right now: c), b), d), e) and finally a). > > While a) is important and is a great way to foster the hackerspace-like > culture ProgSoc once had, everything else you have mentioned here can -- > and unfortunately for the time being, must -- be done without a room. d) > and e) are of importance. In fact, Object 3.4 of our Constitution[2] > exhorts us "[t]o develop useful, new and non-commercial computer > programs to be exported to other installations for non-profit purposes." I always get a little bit annoyed with such "non-profit" qualifications. What's wrong with being paid to create value..? I will contribute to GPL, BSD, MIT licensed projects, but not to anything where the license precludes commercial applications. Part of e), to my mind, would include a Contributor License Agreement which contributors agree to before contributing to projects, which is "infrastructure" that to my knowledge ProgSoc does not have. >> I guess "events" and "meetups" are important too, but those are not >> within my mandate. > > They are most definitely within the mandate of the current membership > still at uni, however, and I think is the most important thing for the > club right now. That's pretty much what Object 3.1 ("Encourage, foster, > promote, develop, extend and govern interest and expertise in Computer > Programming within the University.") is all about. Sure. So like I said, they are important. And not within *my* mandate. Just trying to be clear about what my contributions might be. -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Sun Aug 6 11:37:11 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 11:37:11 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> > Heh. Well I do value your enthusiasm, but I think you might need to > temper that a little. You might find that others aren't as enthusiastic > as you are... perhaps easy does it for now. > IDK... you might find that enthusiasm is CONTAGIOUS. A large part of the reason we are where we are today is a general lack of enthusiasm. In any case, I can't be enthusiastic all by myself. The Critical Mass Hackerspace Design Pattern [1] says that I will fail if I do so. > I didn't get the reference. I'll have to check that out later. Oh, it's just an hilarious, sharp, adroit, on-point sitcom about our industry you should be watching, but anyway... I'm > experiencing an issue with my sound card at the moment [1] (any ideas > anyone..?) so I can't watch it on my main workstation, and there's a > movie playing on my laptop. Can't help you beyond "try it on another device". >> In fact, Object 3.4 of our Constitution[2] >> exhorts us "[t]o develop useful, new and non-commercial computer >> programs to be exported to other installations for non-profit purposes." > > I always get a little bit annoyed with such "non-profit" qualifications. > What's wrong with being paid to create value..? I will contribute to > GPL, BSD, MIT licensed projects, but not to anything where the license > precludes commercial applications. > > Part of e), to my mind, would include a Contributor License Agreement > which contributors agree to before contributing to projects, which is > "infrastructure" that to my knowledge ProgSoc does not have. Change the Constitution to remove the "non-profit" requirement, perhaps? (and also to get rid of all of that "liaison officer" nonsense introduced in 2015 -- such roles can be created at the Executive's discretion and need not be in the Constitution -- and bring back the first year and alumni reps as full Executive members, but that's beyond the scope of our discussion here) Tom [1] https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/The_Critical_Mass_Pattern From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 11:48:28 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 11:48:28 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 11:37, Tomislav Bozic wrote: > Change the Constitution to remove the "non-profit" requirement, perhaps? IANAL, but per my reading "non-profit" is not a "requirement". A requirement would say "all software we develop can only be used for non-profit purposes". But the constitution doesn't say that, it says: "To develop useful, new and non-commercial computer programs to be exported to other installations for non-profit purposes." I'm sure ProgSoc is still free to develop "useless" software, for instance. But the whole thing is rather idiotic. Where is Raz when you need him? -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Sun Aug 6 11:54:23 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 11:54:23 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 11:48, John Elliot V wrote: > On 06/08/17 11:37, Tomislav Bozic wrote: >> Change the Constitution to remove the "non-profit" requirement, perhaps? > > IANAL, but per my reading "non-profit" is not a "requirement". They're just Objects, really, not Requirements per se. They're supposed to guide us in terms of what we ought to be doing, not what we must be doing (apart from the "Union thing", of course). > Where is Raz when you need him? Turn on the Raz Signal. Tom From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 12:10:16 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 12:10:16 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 11:37, Tomislav Bozic wrote: >> experiencing an issue with my sound card at the moment [1] (any ideas >> anyone..?) so I can't watch it on my main workstation, and there's a >> movie playing on my laptop. > > Can't help you beyond "try it on another device". Dude! You missed your chance to ask me if I'd tried turning it off and back on again?! :) -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Sun Aug 6 12:13:59 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 12:13:59 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> Message-ID: <307848f7-75bd-9918-8989-a61e3520fc7a@progsoc.org> >> Can't help you beyond "try it on another device". > > Dude! You missed your chance to ask me if I'd tried turning it off and > back on again?! :) I'm a programmer, not a dog-gammed IT technician! I do have some self-respect, y'know? Tom P.S. did turning it off and on again do it for you? If so, great! From jj5 at jj5.net Sun Aug 6 13:29:39 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 13:29:39 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: <14ed4005-9565-673c-391d-a6c97ed93b0d@jj5.net> On 06/08/17 10:49, Tomislav Bozic wrote: >> Things I think are important: >> a) having a room, and >> b) having intelligent and interesting discussion on this list, and >> c) keeping new members connected to old members for the sake of >> professional development, mentoring, "cultural continuity", and, dare >> I say it, "networking"; and >> d) having some actual programming projects, and >> e) having some infrastructure to support actual programming projects >> (personally I'm not a fan of outsourcing such things to GitHub, we're >> big people, we can support a server or two). > > All of the above are definitely important. In order of importance for me > right now: c), b), d), e) and finally a). The thing about d), programming projects, as I've discovered, is that it's really really hard to get people to engage. Programming projects can be thankless boring chores, which require hard thinking and much time. Generally most people are too busy to get involved. And even if they have the time (which they probably don't) they may not necessarily know what they're doing or what needs to be done. I can't wave a magic wand and magically make people interested in, or available to, actually do some programming... but I can make sporadic progress on my own from time to time, out loud, in public, and see if any others will take some time to join in. -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roland at rolandturner.com Wed Aug 9 16:09:47 2017 From: roland at rolandturner.com (Roland Turner) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:09:47 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> Message-ID: On 06/08/17 09:48, John Elliot V wrote: > "To develop useful, new and non-commercial computer programs to be > exported to other installations for non-profit purposes." > > I'm sure ProgSoc is still free to develop "useless" software, for instance. > > But the whole thing is rather idiotic. Where is Raz when you need him? Catching up, although I imagine that DMARC goodness will mean that my reply won't reach you via the list (who is maintaining the list software at present?). Developing software that is not all of useful, new, and non-commercial is not prohibited by the constitution, it simply isn't what was being pursued. I'd point that this text was written almost a decade prior to both DFSG and OSD. Either of those (or even FSF's four essential freedoms) would be a reasonable starting point now, although constitutional lawyering does not seem to be of primary importance at this moment. I suspect that the thinking in including the creation of new software was about establishing reputation for ProgSoc. Granted, we've not done much this yet but, hey, we're only 28 years (and 2-3 "deaths") in. +1 on the idea that there needs to be "society", for which pubs serve well (as might the uni bar...). I'd encourage those who are in a position to do so to resume weekly gatherings and explore what's possible (who' interested in doing what). A room is important, but that discussion can't start without an active society. - Raz From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Wed Aug 9 17:26:19 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 17:26:19 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> Message-ID: > Catching up, although I imagine that DMARC goodness will mean that my > reply won't reach you via the list You imagined WRONG, sir. > (who is maintaining the list software at present?). That would be the current, reigning CSO[1]. > > Developing software that is not all of useful, new, and non-commercial > is not prohibited by the constitution, it simply isn't what was being > pursued. I'd point that this text was written almost a decade prior to > both DFSG and OSD. Either of those (or even FSF's four essential > freedoms) would be a reasonable starting point now, Again, it is just an Object i.e. what we as a Society OUGHT to be doing, not what we MUST be doing. What we MUST do is covered by the rest of the Constitution[2]. > although > constitutional lawyering does not seem to be of primary importance at > this moment. +1 > I suspect that the thinking in including the creation of new software > was about establishing reputation for ProgSoc. Granted, we've not done > much this yet but, hey, we're only 28 years (and 2-3 "deaths") in. Porting Linux to SPARC, tsunami warning app and Verge Festival app, amongst others surely, notwithstanding... Amongst many things, such as a hackerspace (of sorts), ProgSoc could well be a tech incubator (of sorts). > I'd encourage those who are in a > position to do so to resume weekly gatherings and explore what's > possible (who' interested in doing what). Umm, me. Although I'd only be doing it until we've gathered enough momentum and an enthusiastic core keeps it going. Even then, I'd probably still attend, to be honest. > A room is important, but that discussion can't start without an active > society. I cannot give this enough '+1's. I really can't. Tom [1] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Executive [2] Except for the insanity contained with Section 5.7, of course. From roland at rolandturner.com Wed Aug 9 17:45:48 2017 From: roland at rolandturner.com (Roland Turner) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:45:48 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> Message-ID: <4a7abd25-5506-4215-eb6a-f313c4d27afb@rolandturner.com> On 09/08/17 15:26, Tomislav Bozic wrote: >> Catching up, although I imagine that DMARC goodness will mean that my >> reply won't reach you via the list > > You imagined WRONG, sir. I'd overlooked list subscribers with mailboxes on ProgSoc servers. Thinking about it, jj5.net almost certainly doesn't implement DMARC receive processing at present either. >> (who is maintaining the list software at present?). > > That would be the current, reigning CSO[1]. Good point, thanks. Have written to him to propose configuration changes. >> I suspect that the thinking in including the creation of new software >> was about establishing reputation for ProgSoc. Granted, we've not >> done much this yet but, hey, we're only 28 years (and 2-3 "deaths") in. > > Porting Linux to SPARC, tsunami warning app and Verge Festival app, > amongst others surely, notwithstanding... I didn't say none! > Amongst many things, such as a hackerspace (of sorts), ProgSoc could > well be a tech incubator (of sorts). I'm less convinced by that option but, yes, many of the Hackerspace Design Patterns are clearly applicable. We're definitely seeing the Sine Curve pattern, although the cycle is longer than 4 years; it is perhaps closer to the 11 year sunspot cycle. - Raz From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Wed Aug 9 17:50:45 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 17:50:45 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <4a7abd25-5506-4215-eb6a-f313c4d27afb@rolandturner.com> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <54f906ca-7285-855a-3fed-fb226682f49a@progsoc.org> <4a7abd25-5506-4215-eb6a-f313c4d27afb@rolandturner.com> Message-ID: <17ce8bca-2d70-f32c-1ea8-c1c91912a05b@progsoc.org> >>> I suspect that the thinking in including the creation of new software >>> was about establishing reputation for ProgSoc. Granted, we've not >>> done much this yet but, hey, we're only 28 years (and 2-3 "deaths") in. >> >> Porting Linux to SPARC, tsunami warning app and Verge Festival app, >> amongst others surely, notwithstanding... > > I didn't say none! It's still few and far between, though. >> Amongst many things, such as a hackerspace (of sorts), ProgSoc could >> well be a tech incubator (of sorts). > > I'm less convinced by that option but, yes, many of the Hackerspace > Design Patterns are clearly applicable. Hence "of sorts". The university that supports us, constrains us as well. Tom From jj5 at jj5.net Thu Aug 10 05:54:04 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 05:54:04 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: <86bf96df-75a4-b0d7-2119-ed92e82d0379@jj5.net> On 06/08/17 03:57, John Elliot V wrote: > p.s. A bottle of whisky to the first person who can identify the > referent of the three puns in this message. :) OK. Time's up! The answers were: ProgSoc Reloaded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix_Reloaded ProgSoc Winter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter ProgSoc Spring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring Love, John. -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Thu Aug 10 20:31:48 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 20:31:48 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <86bf96df-75a4-b0d7-2119-ed92e82d0379@jj5.net> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <86bf96df-75a4-b0d7-2119-ed92e82d0379@jj5.net> Message-ID: No way anyone would have gotten those... On 10/08/17 05:54, John Elliot V wrote: > On 06/08/17 03:57, John Elliot V wrote: >> p.s. A bottle of whisky to the first person who can identify the >> referent of the three puns in this message. :) > > OK. Time's up! The answers were: > > ProgSoc Reloaded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix_Reloaded > > ProgSoc Winter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter > > ProgSoc Spring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring > > Love, > John. From jj5 at jj5.net Fri Aug 11 04:23:01 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 04:23:01 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <86bf96df-75a4-b0d7-2119-ed92e82d0379@jj5.net> Message-ID: <112df052-fd64-e179-5ea1-2b35b193d8de@jj5.net> Really? I thought they were gonna be almost too obvious. :P On 10/08/17 20:31, Tomislav Bozic wrote: > No way anyone would have gotten those... > > On 10/08/17 05:54, John Elliot V wrote: >> On 06/08/17 03:57, John Elliot V wrote: >>> p.s. A bottle of whisky to the first person who can identify the >>> referent of the three puns in this message. :) >> >> OK. Time's up! The answers were: >> >> ProgSoc Reloaded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix_Reloaded >> >> ProgSoc Winter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter >> >> ProgSoc Spring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring >> >> Love, >> John. -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 16 08:28:52 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 08:28:52 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> On 06/08/17 03:57, John Elliot V wrote: > Might I suggest that in crises such as this the best course of action is > to go to the pub? Thursday 24th August, Bar Broadway [1], from 5:30pm. > My shout. So... before I travel all the way into the city, is anyone planning to attend next Thursday? If it's only gonna be me and Bozic, then I think I will be changing the venue... -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Wed Aug 16 10:29:51 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tom Bozic) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:29:51 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> Message-ID: <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> As much as it pains me to say it... You could try advertising our meetup on ProgSoc's Facebook page. Look for UTS ProgSoc, like the page, then post on the wall. It'd probably be the first post to that page in about a year. Yes, even this mailing list has been more active this year, which is not saying much. Tom PS: Top posted because I'm on my phone. --------- To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me > On 16 Aug 2017, at 08:28, John Elliot V wrote: > >> On 06/08/17 03:57, John Elliot V wrote: >> Might I suggest that in crises such as this the best course of action is >> to go to the pub? Thursday 24th August, Bar Broadway [1], from 5:30pm. >> My shout. > > So... before I travel all the way into the city, is anyone planning to > attend next Thursday? > > If it's only gonna be me and Bozic, then I think I will be changing the > venue... > > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 16 12:20:56 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 12:20:56 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> Message-ID: Heya Bozic. Could you please advertise on the Facebook page for us? The relevant link is here: http://progsoc.org/pipermail/progsoc/2017-August/003589.html If no-one else is going to show up and it's just you and me, I will shout you dinner at The Lappo [1] instead. Regards, John Elliot V p.s. Top-posted because you did! [1] https://www.yelp.com/biz/lapstone-hotel-blaxland On 16/08/17 10:29, Tom Bozic wrote: > As much as it pains me to say it... > > You could try advertising our meetup on ProgSoc's Facebook page. Look for UTS ProgSoc, like the page, then post on the wall. It'd probably be the first post to that page in about a year. Yes, even this mailing list has been more active this year, which is not saying much. > > Tom > > PS: Top posted because I'm on my phone. > --------- > To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me > >> On 16 Aug 2017, at 08:28, John Elliot V wrote: >> >>> On 06/08/17 03:57, John Elliot V wrote: >>> Might I suggest that in crises such as this the best course of action is >>> to go to the pub? Thursday 24th August, Bar Broadway [1], from 5:30pm. >>> My shout. >> >> So... before I travel all the way into the city, is anyone planning to >> attend next Thursday? >> >> If it's only gonna be me and Bozic, then I think I will be changing the >> venue... >> >> -- >> E: jj5 at jj5.net >> P: +61 4 3505 7839 >> W: https://www.jj5.net/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Progsoc mailing list >> Progsoc at progsoc.org >> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roland at rolandturner.com Wed Aug 16 13:46:37 2017 From: roland at rolandturner.com (Roland Turner) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 11:46:37 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> Message-ID: <55260217-00c1-3633-24d2-e798e6eae469@rolandturner.com> I vitally important detail when organising a gathering is remembering to invite people :-) May I suggest also reaching out to current/recent members (at least the exec) directly? They would appear to be high priority guests. - Raz ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 16/08/17 10:20, John Elliot V wrote: > Heya Bozic. Could you please advertise on the Facebook page for us? The > relevant link is here: > > http://progsoc.org/pipermail/progsoc/2017-August/003589.html > > If no-one else is going to show up and it's just you and me, I will > shout you dinner at The Lappo [1] instead. > > Regards, > John Elliot V > > p.s. Top-posted because you did! > > [1] https://www.yelp.com/biz/lapstone-hotel-blaxland > > On 16/08/17 10:29, Tom Bozic wrote: >> As much as it pains me to say it... >> >> You could try advertising our meetup on ProgSoc's Facebook page. Look for UTS ProgSoc, like the page, then post on the wall. It'd probably be the first post to that page in about a year. Yes, even this mailing list has been more active this year, which is not saying much. >> >> Tom >> >> PS: Top posted because I'm on my phone. >> --------- >> To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me >> >>> On 16 Aug 2017, at 08:28, John Elliot V wrote: >>> >>>> On 06/08/17 03:57, John Elliot V wrote: >>>> Might I suggest that in crises such as this the best course of action is >>>> to go to the pub? Thursday 24th August, Bar Broadway [1], from 5:30pm. >>>> My shout. >>> So... before I travel all the way into the city, is anyone planning to >>> attend next Thursday? >>> >>> If it's only gonna be me and Bozic, then I think I will be changing the >>> venue... >>> >>> -- >>> E: jj5 at jj5.net >>> P: +61 4 3505 7839 >>> W: https://www.jj5.net/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Progsoc mailing list >>> Progsoc at progsoc.org >>> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 16 15:19:34 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:19:34 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <55260217-00c1-3633-24d2-e798e6eae469@rolandturner.com> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> <55260217-00c1-3633-24d2-e798e6eae469@rolandturner.com> Message-ID: On 16/08/17 13:46, Roland Turner wrote: > A vitally important detail when organising a gathering is remembering to > invite people :-) Indeed! :) > May I suggest also reaching out to current/recent members (at least the > exec) directly? They would appear to be high priority guests. Sounds good. I'm a team player [1] and my job is to instigate and pay. Also probably to turn up. Bozic, can we leave invitations and reminders to you? You are our resident events organiser, after all! Love, John. [1] which in this case means that I don't do all the work. :) -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Wed Aug 16 19:18:55 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 19:18:55 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> <55260217-00c1-3633-24d2-e798e6eae469@rolandturner.com> Message-ID: <8a64d976-f7cd-ce2c-243b-c772cc42aa67@progsoc.org> > On 16/08/17 13:46, Roland Turner wrote: > >> May I suggest also reaching out to current/recent members (at least the >> exec) directly? They would appear to be high priority guests. Guests, Raz!? The exec should be RUNNING it. > On 16/08/17 15:19, John Elliot V wrote: > Bozic, can we leave invitations and reminders > to you? You are our resident events organiser, after all! I did it. It's done. I've posted to the Facebook group. Now we play the waiting game! .... ...oh, the waiting game sucks! Who wants to play Hungry Hungry Hippos? Tom ----------------------------------------------------- To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me... From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Wed Aug 16 19:21:34 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 19:21:34 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> Message-ID: <5d151fa5-4b59-67b1-5797-7a57742a7e88@progsoc.org> On 16/08/17 12:20, John Elliot V wrote: > If no-one else is going to show up and it's just you and me, I will > shout you dinner at The Lappo [1] instead. How about I shout YOU a dinner at the Lappo sometime soon! About time I returned the favour, don't you think? Tom ----------------------------------------------------- To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me... From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 16 21:36:43 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 21:36:43 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <5d151fa5-4b59-67b1-5797-7a57742a7e88@progsoc.org> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> <5d151fa5-4b59-67b1-5797-7a57742a7e88@progsoc.org> Message-ID: <521c69ec-169c-f5f3-49e2-18e4e30fb251@jj5.net> On 16/08/17 19:21, Tomislav Bozic wrote: > On 16/08/17 12:20, John Elliot V wrote: >> If no-one else is going to show up and it's just you and me, I will >> shout you dinner at The Lappo [1] instead. > > How about I shout YOU a dinner at the Lappo sometime soon! About time I > returned the favour, don't you think? Well I'm not keeping score, but you can buy me dinner at the Lappo any time, my friend. -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roland at rolandturner.com Thu Aug 17 11:12:07 2017 From: roland at rolandturner.com (Roland Turner) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 09:12:07 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: <8a64d976-f7cd-ce2c-243b-c772cc42aa67@progsoc.org> References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> <55260217-00c1-3633-24d2-e798e6eae469@rolandturner.com> <8a64d976-f7cd-ce2c-243b-c772cc42aa67@progsoc.org> Message-ID: On 16/08/17 17:18, Tomislav Bozic wrote: > Guests, Raz!? The exec should be RUNNING it. No doubt, but as they are not it falls to you to invite them. > > > On 16/08/17 15:19, John Elliot V wrote: > > Bozic, can we leave invitations and reminders > > to you? You are our resident events organiser, after all! > I did it. It's done. I've posted to the Facebook group. > > Now we play the waiting game! Did you reach out to the exec directly? No doubt they watch Facebook like hawks, but just in case... - Raz From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Thu Aug 17 15:12:03 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tom Bozic) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 15:12:03 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> <55260217-00c1-3633-24d2-e798e6eae469@rolandturner.com> <8a64d976-f7cd-ce2c-243b-c772cc42aa67@progsoc.org> Message-ID: --------- To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me > On 17 Aug 2017, at 11:12, Roland Turner wrote: > > Did you reach out to the exec directly? No doubt they watch Facebook like hawks, but just in case... I tagged the Exec in a post on the group announcing our plans last night, upon which the President responded saying that he was about to create a Facebook event for next Tuesday, but Thursday is fine. As of this moment, no event has been created for either day. Seeing as the President and I are colleagues, I should probably remind him before I leave the office today. Tom From roland at rolandturner.com Thu Aug 17 15:55:54 2017 From: roland at rolandturner.com (Roland Turner) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 13:55:54 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc list DMARC (Re: ProgSoc Reloaded) In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> <55260217-00c1-3633-24d2-e798e6eae469@rolandturner.com> <8a64d976-f7cd-ce2c-243b-c772cc42aa67@progsoc.org> Message-ID: <2f87e70b-c87f-81b2-79a7-7788edce5760@rolandturner.com> On 17/08/17 13:20, Jedd Rashbrooke wrote: > Slightly off-topic ... Raz, are you responding to list, or off-list? > > I'm seeing no emails from you to the list -- only quotes in replies. Both. ProgSoc is at the present time employing a legacy approach to list processing which does not interoperate with domains employing DMARC (as mine does). Consequently, my posts to the list have their DKIM signatures rendered invalid by conventional list processing transforms (Subject: tagging, footer, ...) but don't have the From: header changed to refer to the list (also conventional handling, but not compatible with DMARC). When that message reaches Gmail, it is refused or discarded because Gmail notes that I have requested this treatment for messages claiming From: addresses in rolandturner.com but lacking either a DKIM pass or an SPF pass for that domain or a sub-domain. I'll prod Chris again and CC: the list. - Raz From roland at rolandturner.com Thu Aug 17 15:56:00 2017 From: roland at rolandturner.com (Roland Turner) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 13:56:00 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] Mailman changes to support ProgSoc list DMARC compatibility In-Reply-To: <74c78d11-35bf-f87f-26a6-ead960c912a1@rolandturner.com> References: <74c78d11-35bf-f87f-26a6-ead960c912a1@rolandturner.com> Message-ID: (adding progsoc@ because the question keeps coming up) Hi Chris, Have you had a chance to look at this? - Raz ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 09/08/17 15:38, Roland Turner wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > I turned on DMARC reject for my domain a while ago (see below) because > it's being actively abused. Unfortunately this doesn't interoperate > well with older (most...) mailing lists in that they preserve the > From: header but alter the Subject: header and add a footer, thereby > breaking DKIM and therefore DMARC. When a modified copy of the message > is sent to a list subscriber whose receiving system implements DMARC > (particularly including most of the big receivers) the message is > either refused, discarded, or dropped into a spam folder. > > Unfortunately ProgSoc is still running MailMan 2.1.13. In order to > work correctly with posters whose domains publish p=reject, the > following would need to happen: > > * Upgrade MailMail to 2.1.18 or later. > * Set dmarc_moderation_action to Munge From. > > Are you in a position to do this? > > - Raz > > $ dig +short _dmarc.rolandturner.com txt > "v=DMARC1; p=reject; > rua=mailto:n7ot9my3 at ag.dmarcian.com,mailto:raz.dmarc at rolandturner.com; > ruf=mailto:raz.dmarc at rolandturner.com;" > $ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at rolandturner.com Thu Aug 17 16:24:59 2017 From: roland at rolandturner.com (Roland Turner) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 14:24:59 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] Mailman changes to support ProgSoc list DMARC compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <74c78d11-35bf-f87f-26a6-ead960c912a1@rolandturner.com> Message-ID: <0c34debc-42c3-7efb-774e-c7790ea14a20@rolandturner.com> Hi Chris, On 17/08/17 14:22, Chris Deigan wrote: > Sorry, no. I haven't had a chance yet. > Realistically I don't have much spare time for more than keeping the > lights on with the progsoc servers. So although I acknowledge it's > something that should be fixed, it's not something I can commit to in > any timeframe. Understood, thanks. - Raz From chris at deigan.id.au Thu Aug 17 16:22:22 2017 From: chris at deigan.id.au (Chris Deigan) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:22:22 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Mailman changes to support ProgSoc list DMARC compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <74c78d11-35bf-f87f-26a6-ead960c912a1@rolandturner.com> Message-ID: Hey Raz, On 17 August 2017 at 15:56, Roland Turner wrote: > Have you had a chance to look at this? Sorry, no. I haven't had a chance yet. Realistically I don't have much spare time for more than keeping the lights on with the progsoc servers. So although I acknowledge it's something that should be fixed, it's not something I can commit to in any timeframe. -Chris. From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 23 12:45:35 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 12:45:35 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! Message-ID: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> Hey everyone. Just a reminder that we're meeting at Bar Broadway tomorrow evening. Bozic, if you can, please do send a few reminders to key ProgSoc exec and members. See a few of you there! Regards, John Elliot V -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at deigan.id.au Wed Aug 23 13:11:27 2017 From: chris at deigan.id.au (Chris Deigan) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:11:27 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> Message-ID: On 23 August 2017 at 12:45, John Elliot V wrote: > Just a reminder that we're meeting at Bar Broadway tomorrow evening. I have another engagement tomorrow, but I should be able to briefly drop by to say Hi. -Chris From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 23 13:16:08 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:16:08 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> Message-ID: <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> On 23/08/17 13:11, Chris Deigan wrote: > On 23 August 2017 at 12:45, John Elliot V wrote: >> Just a reminder that we're meeting at Bar Broadway tomorrow evening. > > I have another engagement tomorrow, but I should be able to briefly > drop by to say Hi. Excellent. Thanks for squeezing us in. See you tomorrow Chris! Cheers, John. -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robin.wohlersreichel at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 13:20:54 2017 From: robin.wohlersreichel at gmail.com (Robin Wohlers-Reichel) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 03:20:54 +0000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> Message-ID: G'day all, I'll be coming along tomorrow too! Looking forward to seeing everyone and I hope we get a good turnout. Cheers ? Robin On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 13:18, John Elliot V wrote: > On 23/08/17 13:11, Chris Deigan wrote: > > On 23 August 2017 at 12:45, John Elliot V wrote: > >> Just a reminder that we're meeting at Bar Broadway tomorrow evening. > > > > I have another engagement tomorrow, but I should be able to briefly > > drop by to say Hi. > Excellent. Thanks for squeezing us in. See you tomorrow Chris! > > Cheers, > John. > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 23 13:44:15 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:44:15 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> Message-ID: <01cb5968-06e1-afa6-d285-a24a3b21fe11@jj5.net> It already looks like a fair turnout then. So it's Robin, Chris, Bozic, and John confirmed so far. Here are some thoughts for the agenda, please chime in if you think there are other things to discuss: 1. Which people or teams we need to talk to at the university to make sure we are properly supported and integrated with the UTS community, and who is going to do that talking, and when. 2. What we're going to do about getting a room (see point 1.). 3. What our inventory is. What computers, books, equipment do we still have, and where is it being stored (if at all, see point 2.). 4. What we're going to do about ProgSoc's network services, including where our websites and mailing lists are hosted, if we're ever going to run our own hardware again (see point 3.), who we pay for services and how do we fund them, how we will upgrade the mailing list software, etc. 5. What sort of events should ProgSoc be organising, who will do it, and when. This might include what to do about Thursday nights in the immediate term (I'm not available for Thursday nights, so this is an exercise for everyone else). Regards, John Elliot V On 23/08/17 13:20, Robin Wohlers-Reichel wrote: > G'day all, > > I'll be coming along tomorrow too! Looking forward to seeing everyone > and I hope we get a good turnout. > > Cheers ? > Robin > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 13:18, John Elliot V > wrote: > > On 23/08/17 13:11, Chris Deigan wrote: > > On 23 August 2017 at 12:45, John Elliot V > wrote: > >> Just a reminder that we're meeting at Bar Broadway tomorrow evening. > > > > I have another engagement tomorrow, but I should be able to briefly > > drop by to say Hi. > Excellent. Thanks for squeezing us in. See you tomorrow Chris! > > Cheers, > John. > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > > > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at deigan.id.au Wed Aug 23 14:06:47 2017 From: chris at deigan.id.au (Chris Deigan) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:06:47 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: <01cb5968-06e1-afa6-d285-a24a3b21fe11@jj5.net> References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> <01cb5968-06e1-afa6-d285-a24a3b21fe11@jj5.net> Message-ID: On 23 August 2017 at 13:44, John Elliot V wrote: > Here are some thoughts for the agenda, please chime in if you think > there are other things to discuss: Just to be clear, I won't be around for more than half an hour, depending on what time I get away from work. For the benefit of discussion, below are things I can give specific insight on: > 4. What we're going to do about ProgSoc's network services, including > where our websites and mailing lists are hosted, if we're ever going to > run our own hardware again (see point 3.), who we pay for services and > how do we fund them, how we will upgrade the mailing list software, etc. They're currently hosted on Digital Ocean in SFO. I'm funding them myself. The hosting bill is approx. $80 per month -- a large proportion of that is on block storage for home directories. I possess the hardware that hosted ProgSoc until early this year. -Chris From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 23 14:20:22 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:20:22 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> <01cb5968-06e1-afa6-d285-a24a3b21fe11@jj5.net> Message-ID: <81ce4b0f-5ac5-7267-c6ac-7296958e63e2@jj5.net> On 23/08/17 14:06, Chris Deigan wrote: > On 23 August 2017 at 13:44, John Elliot V wrote: >> Here are some thoughts for the agenda, please chime in if you think >> there are other things to discuss: > > Just to be clear, I won't be around for more than half an hour, > depending on what time I get away from work. No worries Chris. That's enough time to buy you a beer, which is the important thing! Seems a bit silly to limit ourselves to talking at the pub tomorrow about things we could just as well talk about on-list. Actually, the only thing we can't do on-list is drink beer! :) > For the benefit of discussion, below are things I can give specific insight on: > >> 4. What we're going to do about ProgSoc's network services, including >> where our websites and mailing lists are hosted, if we're ever going to >> run our own hardware again (see point 3.), who we pay for services and >> how do we fund them, how we will upgrade the mailing list software, etc. > > They're currently hosted on Digital Ocean in SFO. I'm funding them > myself. The hosting bill is approx. $80 per month -- a large > proportion of that is on block storage for home directories. That's very generous of you Chris, thanks. Do we know how much money ProgSoc has in the bank? I recall seeing a Terraform script describing the prospective setup back when you were preparing it. Can I get a link to the latest Terraform script? Or, perhaps just tell me: 1. How many DO VMs are we running, what are they called, and what are their specs (i.e. CPU, RAM, etc.)? I would like to know which versions of which operating systems we're running too. 2. With the block storage, how many gigabytes are provisioned? > I possess the hardware that hosted ProgSoc until early this year. Can you give us details? I.e. number of boxes and approximate specs? -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 23 14:51:42 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:51:42 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> Hey Xu, are you coming tomorrow? :) On 06/08/17 01:02, Xu Lian wrote: > No, ProgSoc is dead! >> On Aug 6, 2017, at 00:04, John Elliot V wrote: >> >> Is this thing on? >> >> Love, >> John. >> -- >> E: jj5 at jj5.net >> P: +61 4 3505 7839 >> W: https://www.jj5.net/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Progsoc mailing list >> Progsoc at progsoc.org >> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 23 14:53:56 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:53:56 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Lewys, I expect you will be there tomorrow, too..? :) p.s. "countparadox" is a respectable gmail handle. Are you familiar with G?del's incompleteness theorem? It is fascinating, and is built on paradox. On 06/08/17 00:14, Lewys Martin wrote: > Go to sleep it's midnight > > On 6 Aug. 2017 12:13 am, "John Elliot V" > wrote: > > Is this thing on? > > Love, > John. > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Wed Aug 23 15:08:15 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 15:08:15 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> Message-ID: <092616a9-c5ae-2717-de91-bf5b709823b2@jj5.net> Hey Jacob, no whisky for you, but if you come tomorrow you get the runner-up prize, which is a few beers... :) On 06/08/17 09:51, Jacob D wrote: > I can only see at most two references... > > ProgSoc winter: gotta be GOT > Go to the pub in a crisis: Maybe shaun of the dead? > > No whiskey for me! > > Cheers, > Jacob > > > On 6 Aug. 2017 3:59 am, "John Elliot V" > wrote: > > So a bunch of us are concerned about our languishing society, and we > have convened private discussions concerning what to do about that. > > Hopefully we can relocate those private discussions to the ProgSoc > mailing list, where I feel they belong. > > Given the number of people who still care about the fate of ProgSoc I'm > quietly confident that we will endure the ProgSoc Winter and live to see > the ProgSoc Spring. > > Might I suggest that in crises such as this the best course of action is > to go to the pub? Thursday 24th August, Bar Broadway [1], from 5:30pm. > My shout. > > We will discuss what needs to be done and who is going to do it and > when. > > In the mean time if you have any thoughts or ideas I for one would be > happy to hear them, on-list. > > Love, > John. > > p.s. A bottle of whisky to the first person who can identify the > referent of the three puns in this message. :) > > [1] > https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.8843067,151.2022272,19.5z?hl=en > > > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > > > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at deigan.id.au Wed Aug 23 23:08:30 2017 From: chris at deigan.id.au (Chris Deigan) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 23:08:30 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: <81ce4b0f-5ac5-7267-c6ac-7296958e63e2@jj5.net> References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> <01cb5968-06e1-afa6-d285-a24a3b21fe11@jj5.net> <81ce4b0f-5ac5-7267-c6ac-7296958e63e2@jj5.net> Message-ID: On 23 August 2017 at 14:20, John Elliot V wrote: > I recall seeing a Terraform script describing the prospective setup back > when you were preparing it. Can I get a link to the latest Terraform > script? Or, perhaps just tell me: https://github.com/ctd/terraform-progsoc-digitalocean-infra/blob/master/progsoc.tf > 1. How many DO VMs are we running, what are they called, and what are > their specs (i.e. CPU, RAM, etc.)? I would like to know which versions > of which operating systems we're running too. See the Terraform file - it has the answers you seek. They all run Ubuntu 12.04. > 2. With the block storage, how many gigabytes are provisioned? 300GB. That alone costs more than the compute resources. >> I possess the hardware that hosted ProgSoc until early this year. > > Can you give us details? I.e. number of boxes and approximate specs? It's a single Dell 2RU chassis. It had been running a VMWare ESXi hypervisor with VMs of crypt, niflheim and muspell. Those were then migrated to DigitalOcean. I don't have any more specific details on-hand. -Chris. From jj5 at jj5.net Thu Aug 24 11:43:32 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 11:43:32 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> Message-ID: Hi Ravi. If you are going to school me on etiquette, please do it on-list. There are pretty much no circumstances where I want an off-list reply from you. If you have something to say, please let everyone see it. If you don't want everyone to see it, you probably shouldn't be sending it. If I'm going to bother having a conversation about what is and is not appropriate, I'm not going to waste my time doing it one-on-one off-list when I could do it once and let everyone see. Community values are created and reinforced by demonstrating them out-loud and in public. There are many good reasons for sending posts on-list even when they appear to be directed mostly at a single person. In these specific cases it was to let everyone see that they are valued and welcome to attend our function. I also took the opportunity to potentially start a conversation about G?del's incompleteness theorem. Even the most interesting technical discussions can start with a simple "Hello". The other reason to force conversation on-list is that when people first arrive on this list and are new here it can be very daunting. When you arrive you find a bunch of very smart people with very strong opinions, and it can be scary to post your thoughts on-list, in public. I remember when I arrived here (around about seventeen years ago) at first I sent my thoughts on various topics off-list to people, because I was afraid to be seen in public, and they would respond by replying to me on-list, and pretty much just forcing me and my conversation on-list. I learned my lesson, and now I post on-list. That's the way things are done around here. This list is a place for a friendly public chat. If you are going to call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then perhaps you would be better served by another forum: https://stackoverflow.com/ Regards, John Elliot V p.s. Will we be seeing you at the pub this evening..? :) On 24/08/17 02:11, Ravi (Tom) Hale wrote: > John, > > Please don't reply list when talking to one person (Xu or Lewys). > > People's time is precious, and signal to noise ratio important so your > messages are valued in future. > > Peace and mung beans, > Ravi > > On 23/08/17 11:51, John Elliot V wrote: >> Hey Xu, are you coming tomorrow? :) >> >> On 06/08/17 01:02, Xu Lian wrote: >>> No, ProgSoc is dead! >>>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 00:04, John Elliot V wrote: >>>> >>>> Is this thing on? >>>> >>>> Love, >>>> John. >>>> -- >>>> E: jj5 at jj5.net >>>> P: +61 4 3505 7839 >>>> W: https://www.jj5.net/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Progsoc mailing list >>>> Progsoc at progsoc.org >>>> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Progsoc mailing list >> Progsoc at progsoc.org >> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc >> -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Thu Aug 24 12:13:12 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 12:13:12 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> <01cb5968-06e1-afa6-d285-a24a3b21fe11@jj5.net> <81ce4b0f-5ac5-7267-c6ac-7296958e63e2@jj5.net> Message-ID: <263285cf-d43b-5f74-a38c-627ed6b738e9@jj5.net> On 23/08/17 23:08, Chris Deigan wrote: > See the Terraform file - it has the answers you seek. Excellent. Thanks! > It's a single Dell 2RU chassis. It had been running a VMWare ESXi > hypervisor with VMs of crypt, niflheim and muspell. Those were then > migrated to DigitalOcean. I don't have any more specific details > on-hand. That's cool. That's everything I wanted to know. Thanks. I'm curious... how did you transfer [1] the VMWare images to DO..? [1] is the term for this "forklifting"..? -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Thu Aug 24 12:55:07 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 12:55:07 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> Message-ID: <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> Hello again. I've continued to think about it, and I feel compelled to also point out that casual banter, in public, on-list, helps to create an environment where people feel safe posting to the list. If people fear that their contributions are potentially going to be labeled "noise" or otherwise not valued, they may very well be afraid to make any sort of contribution at all. If that happens, the mailing list goes dormant, and thereby has no value. (Thinking about it, perhaps that is what has happened around here in recent years.) So a little bit of frivolity and irreverence goes a long way to creating an environment where people feel it is safe to contribute. And lots of little contributions can add up to something worthwhile. Even if that just means you feel you have some friends that you can chat with. Regards, John Elliot V On 24/08/17 11:43, John Elliot V wrote: > Hi Ravi. > > If you are going to school me on etiquette, please do it on-list. There > are pretty much no circumstances where I want an off-list reply from > you. If you have something to say, please let everyone see it. If you > don't want everyone to see it, you probably shouldn't be sending it. > > If I'm going to bother having a conversation about what is and is not > appropriate, I'm not going to waste my time doing it one-on-one off-list > when I could do it once and let everyone see. Community values are > created and reinforced by demonstrating them out-loud and in public. > > There are many good reasons for sending posts on-list even when they > appear to be directed mostly at a single person. In these specific cases > it was to let everyone see that they are valued and welcome to attend > our function. I also took the opportunity to potentially start a > conversation about G?del's incompleteness theorem. Even the most > interesting technical discussions can start with a simple "Hello". > > The other reason to force conversation on-list is that when people first > arrive on this list and are new here it can be very daunting. When you > arrive you find a bunch of very smart people with very strong opinions, > and it can be scary to post your thoughts on-list, in public. > > I remember when I arrived here (around about seventeen years ago) at > first I sent my thoughts on various topics off-list to people, because I > was afraid to be seen in public, and they would respond by replying to > me on-list, and pretty much just forcing me and my conversation on-list. > > I learned my lesson, and now I post on-list. That's the way things are > done around here. This list is a place for a friendly public chat. If > you are going to call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then > perhaps you would be better served by another forum: > https://stackoverflow.com/ > > Regards, > John Elliot V > > p.s. Will we be seeing you at the pub this evening..? :) > > On 24/08/17 02:11, Ravi (Tom) Hale wrote: >> John, >> >> Please don't reply list when talking to one person (Xu or Lewys). >> >> People's time is precious, and signal to noise ratio important so your >> messages are valued in future. >> >> Peace and mung beans, >> Ravi >> >> On 23/08/17 11:51, John Elliot V wrote: >>> Hey Xu, are you coming tomorrow? :) >>> >>> On 06/08/17 01:02, Xu Lian wrote: >>>> No, ProgSoc is dead! >>>>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 00:04, John Elliot V wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is this thing on? >>>>> >>>>> Love, >>>>> John. >>>>> -- >>>>> E: jj5 at jj5.net >>>>> P: +61 4 3505 7839 >>>>> W: https://www.jj5.net/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Progsoc mailing list >>>>> Progsoc at progsoc.org >>>>> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Progsoc mailing list >>> Progsoc at progsoc.org >>> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Thu Aug 24 13:58:42 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 13:58:42 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> <01cb5968-06e1-afa6-d285-a24a3b21fe11@jj5.net> <81ce4b0f-5ac5-7267-c6ac-7296958e63e2@jj5.net> Message-ID: <5877376c-9d27-d75a-e790-f352bda4e295@jj5.net> On 23/08/17 23:08, Chris Deigan wrote: > > https://github.com/ctd/terraform-progsoc-digitalocean-infra/blob/master/progsoc.tf > One teeny tiny little comment above the digitalocean_droplet resource specifications with a note about what network services they provide would be useful... :) Apart from that little complaint, good job. I actually learned about Terraform from you back when you posted your first draft, and now I've used it to provision twenty odd production AWS EC2 instances, replete with corresponding test instances, which I can setup and tear-down as necessary, because I can just reprovision them with Terraform! (So a great deal of thanks are due! You have shown me the path.) -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Thu Aug 24 13:58:48 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 13:58:48 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Pub tomorrow! Free beer! In-Reply-To: References: <23e47434-a841-7e8a-4aea-62e0d6c3b8ed@jj5.net> <8c4277bb-b105-b613-19f7-8135c5e1ad30@jj5.net> <01cb5968-06e1-afa6-d285-a24a3b21fe11@jj5.net> <81ce4b0f-5ac5-7267-c6ac-7296958e63e2@jj5.net> Message-ID: <0f05c23a-f37a-3af8-b589-eba2ce256583@jj5.net> On 23/08/17 23:08, Chris Deigan wrote: > > https://github.com/ctd/terraform-progsoc-digitalocean-infra/blob/master/progsoc.tf > One teeny tiny little comment above the digitalocean_droplet resource specifications with a note about what network services they provide would be useful... :) Apart from that little complaint, good job. I actually learned about Terraform from you back when you posted your first draft, and now I've used it to provision twenty odd production AWS EC2 instances, replete with corresponding test instances, which I can setup and tear-down as necessary, because I can just reprovision them with Terraform! (So a great deal of thanks are due! You have shown me the path.) -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Thu Aug 24 14:48:40 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:48:40 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> Message-ID: <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> I'm sitting here killing time waiting to get on my train to the city, so... On 24/08/17 12:55, John Elliot V wrote: > If people fear that their contributions are potentially going to be > labeled "noise" or otherwise not valued, they may very well be afraid to > make any sort of contribution at all. If that happens, the mailing list > goes dormant, and thereby has no value. (Thinking about it, perhaps that > is what has happened around here in recent years.) I would like to know how long it's been going on around here that people have taken it upon themselves to post to people off-list telling them that it's not OK for them to post on-list. That is just about the most toxic thing that could be going on. It might have been well intentioned, but it is unproductive and wrong. And because it happens off-list, no-one can see it happen and correct for it. I'm a little disheartened that I sent messages to Xu, Lewys, and Jacob, and didn't get a reply one way or another from any of them. Has ignoring people become the status quo around here? Or are you guys really so petrified of being called "noise" that you don't reply? Anyway. See a few of you in a couple of hours. Regards, John Elliot V -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Thu Aug 24 15:03:22 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tom Bozic) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 15:03:22 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> Message-ID: <10456FAB-A913-47F0-99F3-AD153667BC71@progsoc.org> >> On 24/08/17 12:55,John Elliot V wrote: >> If people fear that their contributions are potentially going to be >> labeled "noise" or otherwise not valued, they may very well be afraid to >> make any sort of contribution at all. If that happens, the mailing list >> goes dormant, and thereby has no value. (Thinking about it, perhaps that >> is what has happened around here in recent years.) It's much simpler than that. The younger generation simply don't use email as much as you and I do, therefore the list doesn't get used as much these days. I doubt anyone has been actively discouraging people from posting to the list. If anything, it's been passive. Tom From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Sat Aug 26 16:16:09 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2017 16:16:09 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Inaugural 2017 ProgSoc meeting, 24th of August -- a compact precis Message-ID: ...so, at the behest of ProgSoc's dedicated, long-time membership, we finally got around to having our first meeting of Twenty Seventeen, which was held at Bar Broadway. What can I say -- better late than never! The meetup was pretty well attended. Apart from myself, there was John Elliot (prez 2009), Cody Love (current reigning prez), Brenton Smith (current reigning treasurer), Chris Deigan (current CSO), Jenny Nguyen (vice 2013), Christian Kent (prez 2000 and 2002), Carlin Rookes (prez 2014 and 2015), Jacob Dunk (prez 2016), Robin Wohlers-Reichel (CSO 2014 and 2015), Liam Edwards-Playne (vice 2016) and his friend (Felix? -- a new face!) and David Edney (prez 2005). Even Teigan Penna (current reigning secretary) made a lightning appearance. We even had a special honoured guest, in the form of a gentleman who served in the Papua New Guinea Navy or something; he just joined our party uninvited, but we were all too happy to have him! It was a nice mix of older and newer faces, relatively speaking. John remarked that there were many people that he didn't recognise. I think that's a good thing! Granted, I recognised pretty much everyone that attended. Nice as it was to see so much of our once-active membership again in the same place outside of an AGM, it was a slight pity that we didn't really see more new faces, but that was to be expected for this event. Apart from the imbibing of beer, playing of pool and general merriment all round, there was some discussion of ideas that we as a club could be implementing in the immediate short term: * We currently have regular access to the Software Development Studio (CB11.05.402), a collaborative space for group-based, software-related subjects in the new FEIT building. Our plan is to hold regular meetings in the SDS EVERY TUESDAY henceforth. Such meetings could entail talks on various subjects of interest, presentations, demonstrations, or just general discussion. We're always open to ideas as to what we could do at our meetings. Liam, who is currently on campus on Tuesdays, has kindly volunteered to promote said meetings on our behalf. Thanks Liam! * We could sponsor and field teams of UTS students to various hackathons, including Hackagong at the University of Wollongong. Sponsorship would entail, at the very least, covering travel expenses. We have the funds -- let's use them! There was also mention of starting a "programmable bar fridge" project, akin to our Jukebox[1] and Norman[2] projects of recent years, but I believe that would be contingent on a) regaining a regular, active membership and b) Getting A Room, or at least a dedicated space, shared perhaps with other similarly-minded societies. Special thanks goes to John for suggesting the venue and for ponying up the bar tab! Also, special thanks to our current CSO, Chris, for keeping ProgSoc's server infrastructure going! Now that we've made this first, tentative step towards reviving ProgSoc, we need to keep the momentum going. We need YOU to participate. We need regular, weekly ProgSoc meetings to be a thing again. We need to create a new, active membership who will keep ProgSoc running. Then we can Get A Room. Let's make September through to December, Golden Months of ProgSoc! And let's make Twenty Eighteen a Golden Year! Tom [1] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Jukebox [2] no link here -- it basically gave us keyless entry to the erstwhile ProgSoc room (10.3.380a remains forever in our hearts!) ----------------------------------------------------- To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me... From jj5 at jj5.net Mon Aug 28 18:39:11 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 18:39:11 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> Message-ID: Sorry. I don't aspire to be toxic! :P I mentioned StackOverflow, because AIUI, the modus operandi over there is not to say "thank you", etc. Everything is strictly "on topic" all the time. I truly didn't mean to be offensive. Anyway. Maybe it would be best if I crawled back into my hole... On 28/08/17 11:48, Priscilla Yuen wrote: > Good points in your original email. And many in subsequent ones too. > > I was even nodding in agreement ... up until that last line directing > someone to go away to stackoverflow. > >> This list is a place for a friendly public chat. If you are going to > call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then perhaps you > would be better served by another forum: > https://stackoverflow.com/ > > That was when it became clear that your reasonable, polite message was > aiming to publically shame someone who I understood was trying to > working out a grievance in private first. > > It's no less toxic. > > On 24/08/2017 2:50 PM, "John Elliot V" > wrote: > > I'm sitting here killing time waiting to get on my train to the > city, so... > > On 24/08/17 12:55, John Elliot V wrote: > > If people fear that their contributions are potentially going to be > > labeled "noise" or otherwise not valued, they may very well be > afraid to > > make any sort of contribution at all. If that happens, the mailing > list > > goes dormant, and thereby has no value. (Thinking about it, > perhaps that > > is what has happened around here in recent years.) > > I would like to know how long it's been going on around here that people > have taken it upon themselves to post to people off-list telling them > that it's not OK for them to post on-list. > > That is just about the most toxic thing that could be going on. It might > have been well intentioned, but it is unproductive and wrong. And > because it happens off-list, no-one can see it happen and correct > for it. > > I'm a little disheartened that I sent messages to Xu, Lewys, and Jacob, > and didn't get a reply one way or another from any of them. Has ignoring > people become the status quo around here? Or are you guys really so > petrified of being called "noise" that you don't reply? > > Anyway. See a few of you in a couple of hours. > > Regards, > John Elliot V > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Mon Aug 28 18:52:34 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 18:52:34 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> Message-ID: <891eade9-cf01-d254-5791-024fc4955f57@jj5.net> When I joined this club, seventeen years ago, I got hurled into a culture where grievances were raised publicly, and resolved publicly. Busy people made straight-forward assertive statements about their thoughts, and frankly, at first, it was brutal. But that was the culture here. You came to understand that these were good, well-intentioned people, who were just trying to *help you* to figure out what's right. I'm happy to concede that things change, and I'm not going to dictate how things should be done around here. Love, John. On 28/08/17 18:39, John Elliot V wrote: > Sorry. I don't aspire to be toxic! :P > > I mentioned StackOverflow, because AIUI, the modus operandi over there > is not to say "thank you", etc. Everything is strictly "on topic" all > the time. I truly didn't mean to be offensive. > > Anyway. Maybe it would be best if I crawled back into my hole... > > On 28/08/17 11:48, Priscilla Yuen wrote: >> Good points in your original email. And many in subsequent ones too. >> >> I was even nodding in agreement ... up until that last line directing >> someone to go away to stackoverflow. >> >>> This list is a place for a friendly public chat. If you are going to >> call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then perhaps you >> would be better served by another forum: >> https://stackoverflow.com/ >> >> That was when it became clear that your reasonable, polite message was >> aiming to publically shame someone who I understood was trying to >> working out a grievance in private first. >> >> It's no less toxic. >> >> On 24/08/2017 2:50 PM, "John Elliot V" > > wrote: >> >> I'm sitting here killing time waiting to get on my train to the >> city, so... >> >> On 24/08/17 12:55, John Elliot V wrote: >> > If people fear that their contributions are potentially going to be >> > labeled "noise" or otherwise not valued, they may very well be >> afraid to >> > make any sort of contribution at all. If that happens, the mailing >> list >> > goes dormant, and thereby has no value. (Thinking about it, >> perhaps that >> > is what has happened around here in recent years.) >> >> I would like to know how long it's been going on around here that people >> have taken it upon themselves to post to people off-list telling them >> that it's not OK for them to post on-list. >> >> That is just about the most toxic thing that could be going on. It might >> have been well intentioned, but it is unproductive and wrong. And >> because it happens off-list, no-one can see it happen and correct >> for it. >> >> I'm a little disheartened that I sent messages to Xu, Lewys, and Jacob, >> and didn't get a reply one way or another from any of them. Has ignoring >> people become the status quo around here? Or are you guys really so >> petrified of being called "noise" that you don't reply? >> >> Anyway. See a few of you in a couple of hours. >> >> Regards, >> John Elliot V >> -- >> E: jj5 at jj5.net >> P: +61 4 3505 7839 >> W: https://www.jj5.net/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Progsoc mailing list >> Progsoc at progsoc.org >> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Mon Aug 28 19:01:32 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 19:01:32 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <891eade9-cf01-d254-5791-024fc4955f57@jj5.net> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> <891eade9-cf01-d254-5791-024fc4955f57@jj5.net> Message-ID: p.s. I told Ravi he might prefer another forum. You called me toxic. On 28/08/17 18:52, John Elliot V wrote: > When I joined this club, seventeen years ago, I got hurled into a > culture where grievances were raised publicly, and resolved publicly. > Busy people made straight-forward assertive statements about their > thoughts, and frankly, at first, it was brutal. But that was the culture > here. You came to understand that these were good, well-intentioned > people, who were just trying to *help you* to figure out what's right. > I'm happy to concede that things change, and I'm not going to dictate > how things should be done around here. > > Love, > John. > > On 28/08/17 18:39, John Elliot V wrote: >> Sorry. I don't aspire to be toxic! :P >> >> I mentioned StackOverflow, because AIUI, the modus operandi over there >> is not to say "thank you", etc. Everything is strictly "on topic" all >> the time. I truly didn't mean to be offensive. >> >> Anyway. Maybe it would be best if I crawled back into my hole... >> >> On 28/08/17 11:48, Priscilla Yuen wrote: >>> Good points in your original email. And many in subsequent ones too. >>> >>> I was even nodding in agreement ... up until that last line directing >>> someone to go away to stackoverflow. >>> >>>> This list is a place for a friendly public chat. If you are going to >>> call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then perhaps you >>> would be better served by another forum: >>> https://stackoverflow.com/ >>> >>> That was when it became clear that your reasonable, polite message was >>> aiming to publically shame someone who I understood was trying to >>> working out a grievance in private first. >>> >>> It's no less toxic. >>> >>> On 24/08/2017 2:50 PM, "John Elliot V" >> > wrote: >>> >>> I'm sitting here killing time waiting to get on my train to the >>> city, so... >>> >>> On 24/08/17 12:55, John Elliot V wrote: >>> > If people fear that their contributions are potentially going to be >>> > labeled "noise" or otherwise not valued, they may very well be >>> afraid to >>> > make any sort of contribution at all. If that happens, the mailing >>> list >>> > goes dormant, and thereby has no value. (Thinking about it, >>> perhaps that >>> > is what has happened around here in recent years.) >>> >>> I would like to know how long it's been going on around here that people >>> have taken it upon themselves to post to people off-list telling them >>> that it's not OK for them to post on-list. >>> >>> That is just about the most toxic thing that could be going on. It might >>> have been well intentioned, but it is unproductive and wrong. And >>> because it happens off-list, no-one can see it happen and correct >>> for it. >>> >>> I'm a little disheartened that I sent messages to Xu, Lewys, and Jacob, >>> and didn't get a reply one way or another from any of them. Has ignoring >>> people become the status quo around here? Or are you guys really so >>> petrified of being called "noise" that you don't reply? >>> >>> Anyway. See a few of you in a couple of hours. >>> >>> Regards, >>> John Elliot V >>> -- >>> E: jj5 at jj5.net >>> P: +61 4 3505 7839 >>> W: https://www.jj5.net/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Progsoc mailing list >>> Progsoc at progsoc.org >>> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Progsoc mailing list >> Progsoc at progsoc.org >> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj5 at jj5.net Mon Aug 28 19:30:21 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 19:30:21 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> <891eade9-cf01-d254-5791-024fc4955f57@jj5.net> Message-ID: Since it's a time-honoured tradition for me to have conversations with myself on the ProgSoc mailing list, I felt I could add... On 28/08/17 19:01, John Elliot V wrote: > p.s. I told Ravi he might prefer another forum. You called me toxic. It might be the programmer in me, but I'm pretty sure that if my comment counts as toxic, then by implication your comment does, too. No? -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From xw901103 at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 19:33:03 2017 From: xw901103 at gmail.com (Xu Lian) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 19:33:03 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> <891eade9-cf01-d254-5791-024fc4955f57@jj5.net> Message-ID: <63B5188E-4BAF-4B7F-8B1C-CA73B312CFF6@gmail.com> I don?t see why be toxic in your professional area is bad. There are too many incompetent wannabe in computer science. > On Aug 28, 2017, at 19:30, John Elliot V wrote: > > Since it's a time-honoured tradition for me to have conversations with > myself on the ProgSoc mailing list, I felt I could add... > > On 28/08/17 19:01, John Elliot V wrote: >> p.s. I told Ravi he might prefer another forum. You called me toxic. > It might be the programmer in me, but I'm pretty sure that if my comment > counts as toxic, then by implication your comment does, too. No? > > -- > E: jj5 at jj5.net > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc From tom at hale.ee Mon Aug 28 23:21:55 2017 From: tom at hale.ee (Tom Hale) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 21:21:55 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <63B5188E-4BAF-4B7F-8B1C-CA73B312CFF6@gmail.com> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> <891eade9-cf01-d254-5791-024fc4955f57@jj5.net> <63B5188E-4BAF-4B7F-8B1C-CA73B312CFF6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 28/08/17 17:33, Xu Lian wrote: > I don?t see why be toxic in your professional area is bad. There are too many incompetent wannabe in computer science. There are too many competent toxic people as well. From my workplace experience, one is too many: a toxic person is like a rotten apple. Perhaps we have different definitions of toxic. I will assume that you have looked the word up in a dictionary and ask you: in what way do you see being toxic as positive? Or do you view it simply as non-negative? I joined this list 19 years ago, and I don't remember toxicity ever being constructive here either. It seems at the moment the only thing that Progsoc offers is a sense of soceity, and toxicity is a sure-fire way to tear societies apart. > > On 28/08/17 19:01, John Elliot V wrote: > >> p.s. I told Ravi he might prefer another forum. You called me toxic. > > It might be the programmer in me, but I'm pretty sure that if my comment > > counts as toxic, then by implication your comment does, too. No? Calling the sun hot doesn't make one as hot as the sun. Tom "Ravi" Hale (previously known as Tom Nott, erstwhile author of the progsoc brick code) From jj5 at jj5.net Tue Aug 29 14:36:04 2017 From: jj5 at jj5.net (John Elliot V) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 14:36:04 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> <891eade9-cf01-d254-5791-024fc4955f57@jj5.net> <63B5188E-4BAF-4B7F-8B1C-CA73B312CFF6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7952e465-51a5-e231-027c-5a8202f189f4@jj5.net> On 28/08/17 23:21, Tom Hale wrote: > There are too many competent toxic people as well. From my > workplace experience, one is too many: a toxic person is > like a rotten apple. I agree, competence doesn't compensate for toxicity. > Calling the sun hot doesn't make one as hot as the sun. Not to worry mate, this apple is out of this barrel! Love, John. -- E: jj5 at jj5.net P: +61 4 3505 7839 W: https://www.jj5.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jj5.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 155 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at hale.ee Tue Aug 29 21:54:45 2017 From: tom at hale.ee (Tom Hale) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 19:54:45 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] Etiquette; signal vs noise In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> Message-ID: <06ea95b2-aefd-bb56-2ac7-140465f840b5@hale.ee> Hi John, On 24/08/17 09:43, John Elliot V wrote: > If you are going to school me on etiquette, please do it on-list. There > are pretty much no circumstances where I want an off-list reply from > you. If you have something to say, please let everyone see it. If you > don't want everyone to see it, you probably shouldn't be sending it. I deliberately replied off-list because I wanted to minimise anything that distracts from the objective of Progsoc Redux. The intention was to be tactful - to not diminish your standing in the eyes of the list. I thought that it was an unintentional mistake to send two emails which I equated to "are you coming?" to the whole list. I'm sorry for the schooling tone. > If I'm going to bother having a conversation about what is and is not > appropriate, I'm not going to waste my time doing it one-on-one off-list > when I could do it once and let everyone see. Community values are > created and reinforced by demonstrating them out-loud and in public. I understand the value of efficiency and building community behaviours you mention here. I believe you may be talking more about behaviours rather than values though. Which community values did intend to create / reinforce / demonstrate by your reply? Personally, I felt shocked, disturbed and disappointed when you forwarded my private email to you to the list. My needs for consideration and privacy were not met. Now, it's not your job to meet my needs, but in future I ask that you either: * Ask if it is ok to forward my the email to the list * Anonymise the email before forwarding it to the list > There are many good reasons for sending posts on-list even when they > appear to be directed mostly at a single person. In these specific cases > it was to let everyone see that they are valued and welcome to attend > our function. I also took the opportunity to potentially start a > conversation about G?del's incompleteness theorem. Even the most > interesting technical discussions can start with a simple "Hello". Beauty, like signal, is in the eye of the beholder. The emails I refer to may have been very valuable to the two people you intended to include, but were basically noise to everyone else - they knew the event was on given the vast volume of emails already sent on the topic. Perhaps a personal email would have been more valuable and eliminated any possibility of people feeling pressure / under the spotlight? As a thought experiment, if your posts were valuable, would it have been of greater value if instead of only sending two such emails, you sent 5 or 20 such inclusive emails? > The other reason to force conversation on-list is that when people first > arrive on this list and are new here it can be very daunting. When you > arrive you find a bunch of very smart people with very strong opinions, > and it can be scary to post your thoughts on-list, in public. Perhaps I am reacting poorly to the choice of the words "force conversation on list" -- to me this smacks of non-consent, coercion and domineering. I suggest you'd achieve a better result with newbies with the personal touch. Perhaps an encouragement that what was posted was really useful (and perhaps a request to reply on-list), or an anonymised forwarding to the list if you believe the reply to be fucktardish. They'll know who they are -- there's no need to use the list as a weapon against them personally. > I remember when I arrived here (around about seventeen years ago) at > first I sent my thoughts on various topics off-list to people, because I > was afraid to be seen in public, and they would respond by replying to > me on-list, and pretty much just forcing me and my conversation on-list. I'm sorry that you were subjected to this behaviour when you joined the list, but I hope it was just a phase. To me this is untactful, inconsiderate and even toxic if the list is used to publicly shame, out or "correct" somebody. Everyone has a right to a reply off-list, and to privacy. > I learned my lesson, and now I post on-list. That's the way things are > done around here. That's the way that you and some others have done it in the past. That doesn't mean that there isn't a better way forward. I request you consider whether putting somebody under the spotlight indeed makes this, as you say: > a place for a friendly public chat. To me, the "force it on list" policy makes interacting with Progsoc unsafe in terms of respect of privacy and consideration. The public chat can be optional, rather than enforced. > If > you are going to call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then > perhaps you would be better served by another forum: > https://stackoverflow.com/ Thanks, I love the stackexchange network. Did you know about https://chat.stackoverflow.com? There are 75 rooms on programming and related friendly chit-chat? I've recently discovered https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/ and am learning a lot there. Let's face it - I'm a programmer not a toastmaster, and if the stereotype is accurate, I have a bit to learn in terms of social skills (and hey, I just love learning). I also find https://workplace.stackexchange.com/ quite useful. > p.s. Will we be seeing you at the pub this evening..? :) I would have liked to have joined the gathering, but I live on Koh Phangan, Thailand. This email is redeemable for a coconut by any anybody who comes visit. Tom "Ravi" Hale From tom at hale.ee Tue Aug 29 21:57:15 2017 From: tom at hale.ee (Tom Hale) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 19:57:15 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] Dues and membership demographics Message-ID: <30aaf475-02ea-3df8-4bc5-f17fe8612104@hale.ee> When are dues due? Also, I'm curious in terms of who our members are and what serves them: What percentage of members are non-current students (ie, those paying the higher membership fees)? -- Ravi From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Tue Aug 29 22:19:08 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 22:19:08 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Dues and membership demographics In-Reply-To: <30aaf475-02ea-3df8-4bc5-f17fe8612104@hale.ee> References: <30aaf475-02ea-3df8-4bc5-f17fe8612104@hale.ee> Message-ID: <97b799a0-2e34-a92f-10af-743ff7723d9c@progsoc.org> On 29/08/17 21:57, Tom Hale wrote: > When are dues due? 4.2.5. of [1] says: Annual subscription is dated for the calendar year. Memberships will reset on 1st February of each year, with a 1 month grace period to cover the annual subscriptions. (this clause was added as part of the 2015 amendments) ...so...March this year? I haven't paid yet. In practice, as long as you renew before the AGM (as in previous years, it's fine. > Also, I'm curious in terms of who our members are and what serves them: Me too! > What percentage of members are non-current students (ie, those paying > the higher membership fees)? Hard to say, since I'm not the Treasurer (whom I have just CC'd in) I've been told that at Orientation in March this year, we managed to sign up about 100 students. Whether that is an accurate figure or not is moot, since we have as yet to engage any of them this year. Also, what, exactly is a "member". One who has paid their dues? Or one who is simply involved or otherwise attached to the club? Tom [1] http://progsoc.org/wiki?title=Constitution&oldid=5420 From patwm18 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 29 22:24:19 2017 From: patwm18 at hotmail.com (Pat Morgan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 12:24:19 +0000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Etiquette; signal vs noise In-Reply-To: <06ea95b2-aefd-bb56-2ac7-140465f840b5@hale.ee> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <06ea95b2-aefd-bb56-2ac7-140465f840b5@hale.ee> Message-ID: I had forgotten I was still on this list, having joined not-quite-so 19 years ago (as I was playing with toy trucks at the time) and am by no means still in the Progsoc culture via either membership or cognitive consonance, having banished myself to the far corners of the earth and sworn fealty to the Night's Watch in Canberra. I now find throngs of more than five people such that frequent Broadway threatening, dislike queues, complain about cold weather and, having learnt to drive here, am now terrible at it. The above is no doubt true and salient information, but I doubt many members are really interested in reading it. I strongly suggest that anything resembling a personal issue be raised offline for privacy reasons to not scare new members off. I think either a list etiquette or manifesto acceptable to the Society as determined by current paying members be established if not already, incorporating behaviour and values. Debate and discussion on intellectual topics is great, but what seems to have happened has been a lot of broadcasted material which is not particularly relevant (though I find the articulate banter somewhat entertaining on both sides). This material has been followed by conversations of a personal nature being raised to a list of potentially hundreds of participants. While it's nice to be able to read everything and lovely positives messages, a filter process is also nice for things such as 'going to the pub, friend?' or 'I don't like you very much, friend!' so the rest of the list and anyone in future who cares to browse it, doesn't have to read it. Perhaps the time for things like mailing lists is over. I actually thought they were going to decommission the Progsoc lists now we have Facebook and the like, which is possibly a more acceptable medium where public messages/behaviour outside the spirit of the club can be deleted and private messages are dealt with via another system (Facebook Messenger). Here I think they sort of stay forevermore... On a final note I still have very fond memories of UTS and would like to say hello to those of us still reading :) I apologise if my third party perspective, probably unwelcome email, has offended anyone. Hope you are well John, Tom & Co and I hope the new building and society is going well. Yours in geekiness, Pat Sent from my iPhone > On 29 Aug. 2017, at 9:55 pm, Tom Hale wrote: > > Hi John, > >> On 24/08/17 09:43, John Elliot V wrote: >> If you are going to school me on etiquette, please do it on-list. There >> are pretty much no circumstances where I want an off-list reply from >> you. If you have something to say, please let everyone see it. If you >> don't want everyone to see it, you probably shouldn't be sending it. > > I deliberately replied off-list because I wanted to minimise anything > that distracts from the objective of Progsoc Redux. The intention was > to be tactful - to not diminish your standing in the eyes of the list. > > I thought that it was an unintentional mistake to send two emails which > I equated to "are you coming?" to the whole list. I'm sorry for the > schooling tone. > >> If I'm going to bother having a conversation about what is and is not >> appropriate, I'm not going to waste my time doing it one-on-one off-list >> when I could do it once and let everyone see. Community values are >> created and reinforced by demonstrating them out-loud and in public. > > I understand the value of efficiency and building community behaviours > you mention here. > > I believe you may be talking more about behaviours rather than values > though. > > Which community values did intend to create / reinforce / demonstrate by > your reply? > > Personally, I felt shocked, disturbed and disappointed when you > forwarded my private email to you to the list. > > My needs for consideration and privacy were not met. Now, it's not your > job to meet my needs, but in future I ask that you either: > > * Ask if it is ok to forward my the email to the list > * Anonymise the email before forwarding it to the list > >> There are many good reasons for sending posts on-list even when they >> appear to be directed mostly at a single person. In these specific cases >> it was to let everyone see that they are valued and welcome to attend >> our function. I also took the opportunity to potentially start a >> conversation about G?del's incompleteness theorem. Even the most >> interesting technical discussions can start with a simple "Hello". > > Beauty, like signal, is in the eye of the beholder. The emails I refer > to may have been very valuable to the two people you intended to > include, but were basically noise to everyone else - they knew the event > was on given the vast volume of emails already sent on the topic. > Perhaps a personal email would have been more valuable and eliminated > any possibility of people feeling pressure / under the spotlight? > > As a thought experiment, if your posts were valuable, would it have been > of greater value if instead of only sending two such emails, you sent 5 > or 20 such inclusive emails? > >> The other reason to force conversation on-list is that when people first >> arrive on this list and are new here it can be very daunting. When you >> arrive you find a bunch of very smart people with very strong opinions, >> and it can be scary to post your thoughts on-list, in public. > > Perhaps I am reacting poorly to the choice of the words "force > conversation on list" -- to me this smacks of non-consent, coercion and > domineering. > > I suggest you'd achieve a better result with newbies with the personal > touch. Perhaps an encouragement that what was posted was really useful > (and perhaps a request to reply on-list), or an anonymised forwarding to > the list if you believe the reply to be fucktardish. They'll know who > they are -- there's no need to use the list as a weapon against them > personally. > >> I remember when I arrived here (around about seventeen years ago) at >> first I sent my thoughts on various topics off-list to people, because I >> was afraid to be seen in public, and they would respond by replying to >> me on-list, and pretty much just forcing me and my conversation on-list. > > I'm sorry that you were subjected to this behaviour when you joined the > list, but I hope it was just a phase. To me this is untactful, > inconsiderate and even toxic if the list is used to publicly shame, out > or "correct" somebody. > > Everyone has a right to a reply off-list, and to privacy. > >> I learned my lesson, and now I post on-list. That's the way things are >> done around here. > > That's the way that you and some others have done it in the past. That > doesn't mean that there isn't a better way forward. > > I request you consider whether putting somebody under the spotlight > indeed makes this, as you say: > >> a place for a friendly public chat. > > To me, the "force it on list" policy makes interacting with Progsoc > unsafe in terms of respect of privacy and consideration. > > The public chat can be optional, rather than enforced. > >> If >> you are going to call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then >> perhaps you would be better served by another forum: >> https://stackoverflow.com/ > > Thanks, I love the stackexchange network. Did you know about > https://chat.stackoverflow.com? There are 75 rooms on programming and > related friendly chit-chat? > > I've recently discovered https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/ and am > learning a lot there. Let's face it - I'm a programmer not a > toastmaster, and if the stereotype is accurate, I have a bit to learn in > terms of social skills (and hey, I just love learning). I also find > https://workplace.stackexchange.com/ quite useful. > >> p.s. Will we be seeing you at the pub this evening..? :) > > I would have liked to have joined the gathering, but I live on Koh > Phangan, Thailand. This email is redeemable for a coconut by any anybody > who comes visit. > > Tom "Ravi" Hale > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc From patwm18 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 29 22:24:18 2017 From: patwm18 at hotmail.com (Pat Morgan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 12:24:18 +0000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Etiquette; signal vs noise In-Reply-To: <06ea95b2-aefd-bb56-2ac7-140465f840b5@hale.ee> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> , <06ea95b2-aefd-bb56-2ac7-140465f840b5@hale.ee> Message-ID: I had forgotten I was still on this list, having joined not-quite-so 19 years ago (as I was playing with toy trucks at the time) and am by no means still in the Progsoc culture via either membership or cognitive consonance, having banished myself to the far corners of the earth and sworn fealty to the Night's Watch in Canberra. I now find throngs of more than five people such that frequent Broadway threatening, dislike queues, complain about cold weather and, having learnt to drive here, am now terrible at it. The above is no doubt true and salient information, but I doubt many members are really interested in reading it. I strongly suggest that anything resembling a personal issue be raised offline for privacy reasons to not scare new members off. I think either a list etiquette or manifesto acceptable to the Society as determined by current paying members be established if not already, incorporating behaviour and values. Debate and discussion on intellectual topics is great, but what seems to have happened has been a lot of broadcasted material which is not particularly relevant (though I find the articulate banter somewhat entertaining on both sides). This material has been followed by conversations of a personal nature being raised to a list of potentially hundreds of participants. While it's nice to be able to read everything and lovely positives messages, a filter process is also nice for things such as 'going to the pub, friend?' or 'I don't like you very much, friend!' so the rest of the list and anyone in future who cares to browse it, doesn't have to read it. Perhaps the time for things like mailing lists is over. I actually thought they were going to decommission the Progsoc lists now we have Facebook and the like, which is possibly a more acceptable medium where public messages/behaviour outside the spirit of the club can be deleted and private messages are dealt with via another system (Facebook Messenger). Here I think they sort of stay forevermore... On a final note I still have very fond memories of UTS and would like to say hello to those of us still reading :) I apologise if my third party perspective, probably unwelcome email, has offended anyone. Hope you are well John, Tom & Co and I hope the new building and society is going well. Yours in geekiness, Pat Sent from my iPhone > On 29 Aug. 2017, at 9:55 pm, Tom Hale wrote: > > Hi John, > >> On 24/08/17 09:43, John Elliot V wrote: >> If you are going to school me on etiquette, please do it on-list. There >> are pretty much no circumstances where I want an off-list reply from >> you. If you have something to say, please let everyone see it. If you >> don't want everyone to see it, you probably shouldn't be sending it. > > I deliberately replied off-list because I wanted to minimise anything > that distracts from the objective of Progsoc Redux. The intention was > to be tactful - to not diminish your standing in the eyes of the list. > > I thought that it was an unintentional mistake to send two emails which > I equated to "are you coming?" to the whole list. I'm sorry for the > schooling tone. > >> If I'm going to bother having a conversation about what is and is not >> appropriate, I'm not going to waste my time doing it one-on-one off-list >> when I could do it once and let everyone see. Community values are >> created and reinforced by demonstrating them out-loud and in public. > > I understand the value of efficiency and building community behaviours > you mention here. > > I believe you may be talking more about behaviours rather than values > though. > > Which community values did intend to create / reinforce / demonstrate by > your reply? > > Personally, I felt shocked, disturbed and disappointed when you > forwarded my private email to you to the list. > > My needs for consideration and privacy were not met. Now, it's not your > job to meet my needs, but in future I ask that you either: > > * Ask if it is ok to forward my the email to the list > * Anonymise the email before forwarding it to the list > >> There are many good reasons for sending posts on-list even when they >> appear to be directed mostly at a single person. In these specific cases >> it was to let everyone see that they are valued and welcome to attend >> our function. I also took the opportunity to potentially start a >> conversation about G?del's incompleteness theorem. Even the most >> interesting technical discussions can start with a simple "Hello". > > Beauty, like signal, is in the eye of the beholder. The emails I refer > to may have been very valuable to the two people you intended to > include, but were basically noise to everyone else - they knew the event > was on given the vast volume of emails already sent on the topic. > Perhaps a personal email would have been more valuable and eliminated > any possibility of people feeling pressure / under the spotlight? > > As a thought experiment, if your posts were valuable, would it have been > of greater value if instead of only sending two such emails, you sent 5 > or 20 such inclusive emails? > >> The other reason to force conversation on-list is that when people first >> arrive on this list and are new here it can be very daunting. When you >> arrive you find a bunch of very smart people with very strong opinions, >> and it can be scary to post your thoughts on-list, in public. > > Perhaps I am reacting poorly to the choice of the words "force > conversation on list" -- to me this smacks of non-consent, coercion and > domineering. > > I suggest you'd achieve a better result with newbies with the personal > touch. Perhaps an encouragement that what was posted was really useful > (and perhaps a request to reply on-list), or an anonymised forwarding to > the list if you believe the reply to be fucktardish. They'll know who > they are -- there's no need to use the list as a weapon against them > personally. > >> I remember when I arrived here (around about seventeen years ago) at >> first I sent my thoughts on various topics off-list to people, because I >> was afraid to be seen in public, and they would respond by replying to >> me on-list, and pretty much just forcing me and my conversation on-list. > > I'm sorry that you were subjected to this behaviour when you joined the > list, but I hope it was just a phase. To me this is untactful, > inconsiderate and even toxic if the list is used to publicly shame, out > or "correct" somebody. > > Everyone has a right to a reply off-list, and to privacy. > >> I learned my lesson, and now I post on-list. That's the way things are >> done around here. > > That's the way that you and some others have done it in the past. That > doesn't mean that there isn't a better way forward. > > I request you consider whether putting somebody under the spotlight > indeed makes this, as you say: > >> a place for a friendly public chat. > > To me, the "force it on list" policy makes interacting with Progsoc > unsafe in terms of respect of privacy and consideration. > > The public chat can be optional, rather than enforced. > >> If >> you are going to call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then >> perhaps you would be better served by another forum: >> https://stackoverflow.com/ > > Thanks, I love the stackexchange network. Did you know about > https://chat.stackoverflow.com? There are 75 rooms on programming and > related friendly chit-chat? > > I've recently discovered https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/ and am > learning a lot there. Let's face it - I'm a programmer not a > toastmaster, and if the stereotype is accurate, I have a bit to learn in > terms of social skills (and hey, I just love learning). I also find > https://workplace.stackexchange.com/ quite useful. > >> p.s. Will we be seeing you at the pub this evening..? :) > > I would have liked to have joined the gathering, but I live on Koh > Phangan, Thailand. This email is redeemable for a coconut by any anybody > who comes visit. > > Tom "Ravi" Hale > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc From patwm18 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 29 22:27:30 2017 From: patwm18 at hotmail.com (Pat Morgan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 12:27:30 +0000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Etiquette; signal vs noise In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <06ea95b2-aefd-bb56-2ac7-140465f840b5@hale.ee>, Message-ID: > I had forgotten I was still on this list, having joined not-quite-so 19 years ago (as I was playing with toy trucks at the time) and am by no means still in the Progsoc culture via either membership or cognitive consonance, having banished myself to the far corners of the earth and sworn fealty to the Night's Watch in Canberra. I now find throngs of more than five people such that frequent Broadway threatening, dislike queues, complain about cold weather and, having learnt to drive here, am now terrible at it. > > The above is no doubt true and salient information, but I doubt many members are really interested in reading it. > > I strongly suggest that anything resembling a personal issue be raised offline for privacy reasons to not scare new members off. I think either a list etiquette or manifesto acceptable to the Society as determined by current paying members be established if not already, incorporating behaviour and values. > > Debate and discussion on intellectual topics is great, but what seems to have happened has been a lot of broadcasted material which is not particularly relevant (though I find the articulate banter somewhat entertaining on both sides). This material has been followed by conversations of a personal nature being raised to a list of potentially hundreds of participants. While it's nice to be able to read everything and lovely positives messages, a filter process is also nice for things such as 'going to the pub, friend?' or 'I don't like you very much, friend!' so the rest of the list and anyone in future who cares to browse it, doesn't have to read it. > > Perhaps the time for things like mailing lists is over. I actually thought they were going to decommission the Progsoc lists now we have Facebook and the like, which is possibly a more acceptable medium where public messages/behaviour outside the spirit of the club can be deleted and private messages are dealt with via another system (Facebook Messenger). Here I think they sort of stay forevermore... > > On a final note I still have very fond memories of UTS and would like to say hello to those of us still reading :) I apologise if my third party perspective, probably unwelcome email, has offended anyone. Hope you are well John, Tom & Co and I hope the new building and society is going well. > > Yours in geekiness, > > Pat > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 29 Aug. 2017, at 9:55 pm, Tom Hale wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >>> On 24/08/17 09:43, John Elliot V wrote: >>> If you are going to school me on etiquette, please do it on-list. There >>> are pretty much no circumstances where I want an off-list reply from >>> you. If you have something to say, please let everyone see it. If you >>> don't want everyone to see it, you probably shouldn't be sending it. >> >> I deliberately replied off-list because I wanted to minimise anything >> that distracts from the objective of Progsoc Redux. The intention was >> to be tactful - to not diminish your standing in the eyes of the list. >> >> I thought that it was an unintentional mistake to send two emails which >> I equated to "are you coming?" to the whole list. I'm sorry for the >> schooling tone. >> >>> If I'm going to bother having a conversation about what is and is not >>> appropriate, I'm not going to waste my time doing it one-on-one off-list >>> when I could do it once and let everyone see. Community values are >>> created and reinforced by demonstrating them out-loud and in public. >> >> I understand the value of efficiency and building community behaviours >> you mention here. >> >> I believe you may be talking more about behaviours rather than values >> though. >> >> Which community values did intend to create / reinforce / demonstrate by >> your reply? >> >> Personally, I felt shocked, disturbed and disappointed when you >> forwarded my private email to you to the list. >> >> My needs for consideration and privacy were not met. Now, it's not your >> job to meet my needs, but in future I ask that you either: >> >> * Ask if it is ok to forward my the email to the list >> * Anonymise the email before forwarding it to the list >> >>> There are many good reasons for sending posts on-list even when they >>> appear to be directed mostly at a single person. In these specific cases >>> it was to let everyone see that they are valued and welcome to attend >>> our function. I also took the opportunity to potentially start a >>> conversation about G?del's incompleteness theorem. Even the most >>> interesting technical discussions can start with a simple "Hello". >> >> Beauty, like signal, is in the eye of the beholder. The emails I refer >> to may have been very valuable to the two people you intended to >> include, but were basically noise to everyone else - they knew the event >> was on given the vast volume of emails already sent on the topic. >> Perhaps a personal email would have been more valuable and eliminated >> any possibility of people feeling pressure / under the spotlight? >> >> As a thought experiment, if your posts were valuable, would it have been >> of greater value if instead of only sending two such emails, you sent 5 >> or 20 such inclusive emails? >> >>> The other reason to force conversation on-list is that when people first >>> arrive on this list and are new here it can be very daunting. When you >>> arrive you find a bunch of very smart people with very strong opinions, >>> and it can be scary to post your thoughts on-list, in public. >> >> Perhaps I am reacting poorly to the choice of the words "force >> conversation on list" -- to me this smacks of non-consent, coercion and >> domineering. >> >> I suggest you'd achieve a better result with newbies with the personal >> touch. Perhaps an encouragement that what was posted was really useful >> (and perhaps a request to reply on-list), or an anonymised forwarding to >> the list if you believe the reply to be fucktardish. They'll know who >> they are -- there's no need to use the list as a weapon against them >> personally. >> >>> I remember when I arrived here (around about seventeen years ago) at >>> first I sent my thoughts on various topics off-list to people, because I >>> was afraid to be seen in public, and they would respond by replying to >>> me on-list, and pretty much just forcing me and my conversation on-list. >> >> I'm sorry that you were subjected to this behaviour when you joined the >> list, but I hope it was just a phase. To me this is untactful, >> inconsiderate and even toxic if the list is used to publicly shame, out >> or "correct" somebody. >> >> Everyone has a right to a reply off-list, and to privacy. >> >>> I learned my lesson, and now I post on-list. That's the way things are >>> done around here. >> >> That's the way that you and some others have done it in the past. That >> doesn't mean that there isn't a better way forward. >> >> I request you consider whether putting somebody under the spotlight >> indeed makes this, as you say: >> >>> a place for a friendly public chat. >> >> To me, the "force it on list" policy makes interacting with Progsoc >> unsafe in terms of respect of privacy and consideration. >> >> The public chat can be optional, rather than enforced. >> >>> If >>> you are going to call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then >>> perhaps you would be better served by another forum: >>> https://stackoverflow.com/ >> >> Thanks, I love the stackexchange network. Did you know about >> https://chat.stackoverflow.com? There are 75 rooms on programming and >> related friendly chit-chat? >> >> I've recently discovered https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/ and am >> learning a lot there. Let's face it - I'm a programmer not a >> toastmaster, and if the stereotype is accurate, I have a bit to learn in >> terms of social skills (and hey, I just love learning). I also find >> https://workplace.stackexchange.com/ quite useful. >> >>> p.s. Will we be seeing you at the pub this evening..? :) >> >> I would have liked to have joined the gathering, but I live on Koh >> Phangan, Thailand. This email is redeemable for a coconut by any anybody >> who comes visit. >> >> Tom "Ravi" Hale >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Progsoc mailing list >> Progsoc at progsoc.org >> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Tue Aug 29 22:44:13 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 22:44:13 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Etiquette; signal vs noise In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <06ea95b2-aefd-bb56-2ac7-140465f840b5@hale.ee> Message-ID: <945ebf38-6450-b9bc-4e46-529c86d101f2@progsoc.org> How's this for a blast from the past! On 29/08/17 22:24, Pat Morgan wrote: > I had forgotten I was still on this list, Quite. > I strongly suggest that anything resembling a personal issue be raised offline for privacy reasons to not scare new members off. I think either a list etiquette or manifesto acceptable to the Society as determined by current paying members be established if not already, incorporating behaviour and values. +1. Definitely warrants open discussion. > Debate and discussion on intellectual topics is great, but what seems to have happened has been a lot of broadcasted material which is not particularly relevant (though I find the articulate banter somewhat entertaining on both sides). This material has been followed by conversations of a personal nature being raised to a list of potentially hundreds of participants. While it's nice to be able to read everything and lovely positives messages, a filter process is also nice for things such as 'going to the pub, friend?' or 'I don't like you very much, friend!' so the rest of the list and anyone in future who cares to browse it, doesn't have to read it. At least we're not sharing credit card details or similar such. But yeah, I'm for noise reduction. > Perhaps the time for things like mailing lists is over. I actually thought they were going to decommission the Progsoc lists Decommission! Never! Thou speakest heresy! Besides, it's unnecessary, since we kind of let the list die...until we did a Lazarus on it recently. now we have Facebook and the like, which is possibly a more acceptable medium where public messages/behaviour outside the spirit of the club can be deleted and private messages are dealt with via another system (Facebook Messenger). Here I think they sort of stay forevermore... I like the openness of public lists. I also dislike historical revisionism/deletionism. > On a final note I still have very fond memories of UTS and would like to say hello to those of us still reading :) I apologise if my third party perspective, probably unwelcome email, has offended anyone. Hope you are well John, Tom & Co and I hope the new building and society is going well. I am well. I left UTS last year. Building 11 is tops. No room as yet, but we'll get there someday. Tom >> On 29 Aug. 2017, at 9:55 pm, Tom Hale wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >>> On 24/08/17 09:43, John Elliot V wrote: >>> If you are going to school me on etiquette, please do it on-list. There >>> are pretty much no circumstances where I want an off-list reply from >>> you. If you have something to say, please let everyone see it. If you >>> don't want everyone to see it, you probably shouldn't be sending it. >> >> I deliberately replied off-list because I wanted to minimise anything >> that distracts from the objective of Progsoc Redux. The intention was >> to be tactful - to not diminish your standing in the eyes of the list. >> >> I thought that it was an unintentional mistake to send two emails which >> I equated to "are you coming?" to the whole list. I'm sorry for the >> schooling tone. >> >>> If I'm going to bother having a conversation about what is and is not >>> appropriate, I'm not going to waste my time doing it one-on-one off-list >>> when I could do it once and let everyone see. Community values are >>> created and reinforced by demonstrating them out-loud and in public. >> >> I understand the value of efficiency and building community behaviours >> you mention here. >> >> I believe you may be talking more about behaviours rather than values >> though. >> >> Which community values did intend to create / reinforce / demonstrate by >> your reply? >> >> Personally, I felt shocked, disturbed and disappointed when you >> forwarded my private email to you to the list. >> >> My needs for consideration and privacy were not met. Now, it's not your >> job to meet my needs, but in future I ask that you either: >> >> * Ask if it is ok to forward my the email to the list >> * Anonymise the email before forwarding it to the list >> >>> There are many good reasons for sending posts on-list even when they >>> appear to be directed mostly at a single person. In these specific cases >>> it was to let everyone see that they are valued and welcome to attend >>> our function. I also took the opportunity to potentially start a >>> conversation about G?del's incompleteness theorem. Even the most >>> interesting technical discussions can start with a simple "Hello". >> >> Beauty, like signal, is in the eye of the beholder. The emails I refer >> to may have been very valuable to the two people you intended to >> include, but were basically noise to everyone else - they knew the event >> was on given the vast volume of emails already sent on the topic. >> Perhaps a personal email would have been more valuable and eliminated >> any possibility of people feeling pressure / under the spotlight? >> >> As a thought experiment, if your posts were valuable, would it have been >> of greater value if instead of only sending two such emails, you sent 5 >> or 20 such inclusive emails? >> >>> The other reason to force conversation on-list is that when people first >>> arrive on this list and are new here it can be very daunting. When you >>> arrive you find a bunch of very smart people with very strong opinions, >>> and it can be scary to post your thoughts on-list, in public. >> >> Perhaps I am reacting poorly to the choice of the words "force >> conversation on list" -- to me this smacks of non-consent, coercion and >> domineering. >> >> I suggest you'd achieve a better result with newbies with the personal >> touch. Perhaps an encouragement that what was posted was really useful >> (and perhaps a request to reply on-list), or an anonymised forwarding to >> the list if you believe the reply to be fucktardish. They'll know who >> they are -- there's no need to use the list as a weapon against them >> personally. >> >>> I remember when I arrived here (around about seventeen years ago) at >>> first I sent my thoughts on various topics off-list to people, because I >>> was afraid to be seen in public, and they would respond by replying to >>> me on-list, and pretty much just forcing me and my conversation on-list. >> >> I'm sorry that you were subjected to this behaviour when you joined the >> list, but I hope it was just a phase. To me this is untactful, >> inconsiderate and even toxic if the list is used to publicly shame, out >> or "correct" somebody. >> >> Everyone has a right to a reply off-list, and to privacy. >> >>> I learned my lesson, and now I post on-list. That's the way things are >>> done around here. >> >> That's the way that you and some others have done it in the past. That >> doesn't mean that there isn't a better way forward. >> >> I request you consider whether putting somebody under the spotlight >> indeed makes this, as you say: >> >>> a place for a friendly public chat. >> >> To me, the "force it on list" policy makes interacting with Progsoc >> unsafe in terms of respect of privacy and consideration. >> >> The public chat can be optional, rather than enforced. >> >>> If >>> you are going to call polite inclusive public conversation "noise", then >>> perhaps you would be better served by another forum: >>> https://stackoverflow.com/ >> >> Thanks, I love the stackexchange network. Did you know about >> https://chat.stackoverflow.com? There are 75 rooms on programming and >> related friendly chit-chat? >> >> I've recently discovered https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/ and am >> learning a lot there. Let's face it - I'm a programmer not a >> toastmaster, and if the stereotype is accurate, I have a bit to learn in >> terms of social skills (and hey, I just love learning). I also find >> https://workplace.stackexchange.com/ quite useful. >> >>> p.s. Will we be seeing you at the pub this evening..? :) >> >> I would have liked to have joined the gathering, but I live on Koh >> Phangan, Thailand. This email is redeemable for a coconut by any anybody >> who comes visit. >> >> Tom "Ravi" Hale >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Progsoc mailing list >> Progsoc at progsoc.org >> http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > -- ----------------------------------------------------- To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me... From tom at hale.ee Wed Aug 30 01:18:27 2017 From: tom at hale.ee (Tom Hale) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 23:18:27 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] What's a member? In-Reply-To: <97b799a0-2e34-a92f-10af-743ff7723d9c@progsoc.org> References: <30aaf475-02ea-3df8-4bc5-f17fe8612104@hale.ee> <97b799a0-2e34-a92f-10af-743ff7723d9c@progsoc.org> Message-ID: <74fd985e-e20c-612f-1a5b-557c1ec41abe@hale.ee> On 29/08/17 20:19, Tomislav Bozic wrote: > Also, what, exactly is a "member". One who has paid their dues? Or one > who is simply involved or otherwise attached to the club? Good point. One may be an active member of this list (I guess that's none of us in the medium history!) and involved in the society, but not a member as defined by the constitution. As we are not running out of money, I strongly prefer the former over the latter. Tom, thank you for your recent posts to this list. They have been a pleasure to read: informative and constructive. Regards, Tom From tom at hale.ee Thu Aug 31 18:24:54 2017 From: tom at hale.ee (Tom Hale) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 16:24:54 +0800 Subject: [ProgSoc] Progsoc: what do we provide of value? Message-ID: [Greetings from Malaysia. I'm here picking up a new passport, as the current one expiring in 2012 is full.] I'm not sure if Progsoc will survive as more than a relic. I hope it does, but I'm a bit stuck as to what we can provide which is of value thereby bringing engagement. I've been reflecting on Progsoc: * What it offers me * What I wish it would offer me * Offerings past and future * What it could offer others Progsoc offers me: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * a *.edu.au email address (which I use for discounted goodies) * a nostalgic connection to UTS I'd like to be able to say that it offers me more. The value I gain from Progsoc is "sufficient". It's not glowing, but that's how it is for me. What I would like from Progsoc: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * An artificial intelligence project to work on, with guidance from experienced mentors. I'm currently half way through Andrew Ng's excellent and free Machine Learning course[1]. * Assistance in processor grind for kaggle competitions[2] and future machine learning projects. My Thai house on a lake costs $300 a month. I rent motorbikes to cover some of the cost. I have a laptop with on-board Intel 520 graphics chipset which I foresee won't be great at the kaggle competitions that I intend to participate in. => Offers of GPU processor time on would be greatly appreciated, as would society funded access to cloud machines. Enough about me... What about everyone else? Past & Future offerings ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'd like to do a retrospective of what Progsoc has offered in the past, and what I see the situation to be now, and in future. I'm not going to preface everything with "in my opinion", "I believe" etc, as this will get repetitive. Consider this paragraph to be the disclaimer. Oh, please correct the factual errors (and add what I've missed). I guess that there are many like me who would appreciate being brought up to speed. ### TFM Past: A tree-book manual, introduction to hacker culture, Unix and peculiarities of the SoCS[3] machines. This took bunches of time to keep up-to-date. Book sales provided revenue for the society. Now: Nobody is interested in tree-books any more. Nobody can be arsed creating an updated ebook version. I question if anyone would even value it, when "OK google" can be verbally asked these days. ### Always-on internet servers Past: When students were still dialling into the SoCS modem pool for net access, having shell access to an always-online server was valuable. Now: 4G tethering, broadband at home. ### A programming environment Past: Various compilers and tools not available on the SoCS servers were installed for use by members Now: I am not sufficiently aware of the configuration state to comment as to where things are technologically. But what value would we offer above say someone installing Ubuntu? ### Support with programming questions Past: People used to post questions regarding programming for assistance. Now: It's been a few years since a question like this appeared on-list. General questions go to StackOverflow presumably. Individual "where's my bug" questions are not asked. ### Projects Past: Projects were rallying points for members, whether they came to fruition or not. Some that come to mind are the Olympic brick inscriptions, a b33r/coke powered server, long-range wifi access to Progsoc, and a Jukebox Now: No projects have happened for a long time. I wonder if we have sufficient cohesion / interest to be able to get consensus and momentum on a project... but perhaps a project is exactly what we need. ### Meet ups Past: Social gatherings, hanging out with like-minded peeps. Now: Unsure. The ravens' scrolls don't reach to Thailand. Subsidised / free events are a perennial winner. ### Mailing list Past: A place to flame and indoctrinate newbies, and generally show the world how we as programmers are lacking in social skills, or to tolerate such in others. A place to refine the people skills which account for the lion's share of variation in earning capacity. A place for discussion about the other stuff that we were doing. A place to hang out and have interesting geeky discussions. Now: (and recent past). *Tumble weeds roll across a vast and arid plain* jj5 has light a recent fire under this list... perhaps we will rise from the ashes again? We don't have enough engagement to split off into separate spaces for chat (slack anyone?) and more meaty messages, so this list may need to deal with serving dishes of fairy floss and steak. ### Sharing of knowledge / talks Presentations on particular topics of clue. I'm pretty sure that this has happened a few times in the past, but can't remember an instance of it. Now: Tom mentioned that a shared space could be used for such. ### None of the above Now we have the opportunity to do something never done before. Screw the constitution, if it's something that's sufficiently wanted, we can change it. #include Over to you ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I would like to know: * What *you* currently value about Progsoc. Why are you (still) here? * What you *would* value, ie what you hope Progsoc will provide. * What Progsoc could provide to the community (Progsoc, FoEaIT, UTS, Sydney, Australia...)? -- Tom "Ravi" Hale [1] https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning [2] https://www.kaggle.com/ [3] "The School of Computing Sciences is part of the Faculty of Mathematical and Computing Sciences": https://web.archive.org/web/19981207015627/http://www.socs.uts.edu.au:80/ From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Thu Aug 31 20:28:49 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 20:28:49 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Progsoc: what do we provide of value? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 31/08/17 18:24, Tom Hale wrote: > Progsoc offers me: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * a *.edu.au email address (which I use for discounted goodies) Never really took advantage of that... Apparently you can (or could at some point) get an @alumni.uts.edu.au email address, but I'm really not sure. I would like to know: when WAS the last time we created a new account for members? I believe that last time I did it personally was in 2013, when I last manned the O-Day stall. Not sure if any new accounts have been created since. But I digress... > What I would like from Progsoc: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * An artificial intelligence project to work on, with guidance from > experienced mentors. I'm currently half way through Andrew Ng's > excellent and free Machine Learning course[1]. Great idea. First, find the mentors. > * Assistance in processor grind for kaggle competitions[2] and future > machine learning projects. My Thai house on a lake costs $300 a month. $300? You lucky expletive... > I have a laptop with on-board > Intel 520 graphics chipset which I foresee won't be great at the kaggle > competitions that I intend to participate in. > => Offers of GPU processor time on would be greatly appreciated, as > would society funded access to cloud machines. A ProgSoc AWS account or similar such could be worth investigating. Or if we had a hackerspace, build our own PlayStation GPU farm. Or similar such. > Oh, please correct the factual errors (and add what I've missed). I > guess that there are many like me who would appreciate being brought up > to speed. That's what I'm here for! > ### TFM > Past: A tree-book manual, introduction to hacker culture, Unix and > peculiarities of the SoCS[3] machines. This took bunches of time to keep > up-to-date. Book sales provided revenue for the society. > Now: Nobody is interested in tree-books any more. Nobody can be arsed > creating an updated ebook version. I question if anyone would even value > it, when "OK google" can be verbally asked these days. We did publish the last TFM in 2013[1]. Took us about four years of intermittent editing to get it out the door. I don't think we sold any more than five copies of that run, to be honest. I believe the surplus copies were turfed out when we vacated 10.3.380a. Hopefully we have at least one copy in storage. Shortly after publishing the final TFM, we wikified its contents and posted it here: [2] It's sort of an "eternal" edition of TFM now. People are more than welcome to update it as they see fit. If they have an account, of course. Before we published the last TFM, we meticulously OCR-scanned and HTML-ified all of the previous editions of TFM and the Sun User Guide we had in our possession (as well as two editions lent to us by Stephen Gowing) and uploaded them all here: [3]. Yeah, I should've made PDFs of the originals as well. Sue me. > ### Always-on internet servers > Past: When students were still dialling into the SoCS modem pool for net > access, having shell access to an always-online server was valuable. > Now: 4G tethering, broadband at home. Not to mention a web server that offered way more than Geocities and their ilk did, all for $10/year. Which you can still get with us, by the way. If someone can create an account for you. > ### A programming environment > Past: Various compilers and tools not available on the SoCS servers were > installed for use by members > Now: I am not sufficiently aware of the configuration state to comment > as to where things are technologically. But what value would we offer > above say someone installing Ubuntu? We have compilers on niflheim. But they're of little use to the average member these days. > ### Support with programming questions > Past: People used to post questions regarding programming for assistance. > Now: It's been a few years since a question like this appeared on-list. > General questions go to StackOverflow presumably. Individual "where's my > bug" questions are not asked. Probably for the best, to be honest. Now, if it was students asking for help with their programming subjects on the other hand... Actually, we gave at least two talks in the early teens (the exact years escape me now -- probably 2010 and 2011) to Programming Fundamentals students offering advice on how to do the assignments amongst other things. They were pretty well-attended, as you would imagine. Worth resurrecting. > ### Projects > Past: Projects were rallying points for members, whether they came to > fruition or not. Some that come to mind are the Olympic brick > inscriptions, a b33r/coke powered server, long-range wifi access to > Progsoc, and a Jukebox > Now: No projects have happened for a long time. I wonder if we have > sufficient cohesion / interest to be able to get consensus and momentum > on a project... but perhaps a project is exactly what we need. Our last project was, I believe, in 2014 with our 'Norman' keyless access project, when we still had the room. Carlin and D'Netto can tell us more about that, if they're reading this... I do remember Jacob Dunk creating an app for the Verge Festival at Sydney Uni in 2013, which was awesome, because we actually wrote some software in the name of ProgSoc. There was the programmable bar fridge idea that was mooted at our meetup last Thursday... > ### Meet ups > Past: Social gatherings, hanging out with like-minded peeps. > Now: Unsure. The ravens' scrolls don't reach to Thailand. Subsidised / > free events are a perennial winner. When I joined in 2008, we really didn't do much in the way of events. We didn't need to, really. We had our own room, and that's all we needed for our weekly meetings. Eventually, though, we decided to be a bit more social and community-minded. We spread our wings with talks in 2011 (see below). Then, in 2012, we held the very first UTS Programming Competition[4]. It was so successful, we held four more consecutive editions from 2013 to 2016 inclusive. Who knows, we might resume the ProgComp next year... Our best month ever in my opinion was March of 2014. To celebrate our 25th anniversary, we hosted not only a programming competition, but also our first, and to date, only weekend hackathon, Code2Day[5]. Yes, we actually did a HACKATHON. This is what ProgSoc has been capable of. To say it was a mammoth undertaking to stage not one, but TWO major events in one month, is an understatement. But we were a crack team and we pulled it off. It really was the high point of ProgSoc. I had never been prouder to have been part of the club at that point. Then ProgSoc's slow decline began. After losing the room in 2015, we never truly recovered. Hopefully with a concerted effort on everyone's part our fortunes will change! > ### Sharing of knowledge / talks > Presentations on particular topics of clue. I'm pretty sure that this > has happened a few times in the past, but can't remember an instance of it. > Now: Tom mentioned that a shared space could be used for such. I remember 2011 being The Year of Talks for ProgSoc. We had at least four: apart from the aforementioned ProgFun talk, we did IPv6, network security and something related to web development, I think. My memories are fading. My colleague would like to give a talk on User Experience -- stay tuned for that! Also, we'd like to get that guy from Dev Diner[6] back for another talk -- his presentation on Virtual Reality in 2016 was well-received and reasonably well-attended. > * What *you* currently value about Progsoc. Why are you (still) here? Because I love ProgSoc with all my heart. I gave so much to it and it gave me so much in return. I got more out of it than any coursework or any other experience at UTS. I am who I am today because of ProgSoc -- that's no exaggeration. And I want others to have a similar experience. > * What you *would* value, ie what you hope Progsoc will provide. > * What Progsoc could provide to the community (Progsoc, FoEaIT, UTS, > Sydney, Australia...)? The possibilities are endless. Tom P.S. The people who should be reading this and responding (i.e. not old timers) are not likely to be subscribed to this mailing list, sadly. [1] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Printed_Publications#TFM [2] http://progsoc.org/wiki/TFM:Contents [3] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Printed_Publications#Past_Publications [4] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Programming_Competitions [5] http://progsoc.org/code2day/ [6] https://devdiner.com/ ----------------------------------------------------- To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me... From patwm18 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 31 21:21:54 2017 From: patwm18 at hotmail.com (Pat Morgan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 11:21:54 +0000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Progsoc: what do we provide of value? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Do you guys not have a Progsoc room any more?? I thought one of the goals was to secure one. Sent from my iPhone > On 31 Aug. 2017, at 8:29 pm, Tomislav Bozic wrote: > >> On 31/08/17 18:24, Tom Hale wrote: >> >> Progsoc offers me: >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> * a *.edu.au email address (which I use for discounted goodies) > > Never really took advantage of that... > > Apparently you can (or could at some point) get an @alumni.uts.edu.au email address, but I'm really not sure. > > I would like to know: when WAS the last time we created a new account for members? I believe that last time I did it personally was in 2013, when I last manned the O-Day stall. Not sure if any new accounts have been created since. But I digress... > >> What I would like from Progsoc: >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> * An artificial intelligence project to work on, with guidance from >> experienced mentors. I'm currently half way through Andrew Ng's >> excellent and free Machine Learning course[1]. > > Great idea. First, find the mentors. > >> * Assistance in processor grind for kaggle competitions[2] and future >> machine learning projects. My Thai house on a lake costs $300 a month. > > $300? You lucky expletive... > >> I have a laptop with on-board >> Intel 520 graphics chipset which I foresee won't be great at the kaggle >> competitions that I intend to participate in. >> => Offers of GPU processor time on would be greatly appreciated, as >> would society funded access to cloud machines. > > A ProgSoc AWS account or similar such could be worth investigating. Or if we had a hackerspace, build our own PlayStation GPU farm. Or similar such. > >> Oh, please correct the factual errors (and add what I've missed). I >> guess that there are many like me who would appreciate being brought up >> to speed. > > That's what I'm here for! > >> ### TFM >> Past: A tree-book manual, introduction to hacker culture, Unix and >> peculiarities of the SoCS[3] machines. This took bunches of time to keep >> up-to-date. Book sales provided revenue for the society. >> Now: Nobody is interested in tree-books any more. Nobody can be arsed >> creating an updated ebook version. I question if anyone would even value >> it, when "OK google" can be verbally asked these days. > > We did publish the last TFM in 2013[1]. Took us about four years of intermittent editing to get it out the door. I don't think we sold any more than five copies of that run, to be honest. I believe the surplus copies were turfed out when we vacated 10.3.380a. Hopefully we have at least one copy in storage. > > Shortly after publishing the final TFM, we wikified its contents and posted it here: [2] It's sort of an "eternal" edition of TFM now. People are more than welcome to update it as they see fit. If they have an account, of course. > > Before we published the last TFM, we meticulously OCR-scanned and HTML-ified all of the previous editions of TFM and the Sun User Guide we had in our possession (as well as two editions lent to us by Stephen Gowing) and uploaded them all here: [3]. Yeah, I should've made PDFs of the originals as well. Sue me. > >> ### Always-on internet servers >> Past: When students were still dialling into the SoCS modem pool for net >> access, having shell access to an always-online server was valuable. >> Now: 4G tethering, broadband at home. > > Not to mention a web server that offered way more than Geocities and their ilk did, all for $10/year. Which you can still get with us, by the way. If someone can create an account for you. > >> ### A programming environment >> Past: Various compilers and tools not available on the SoCS servers were >> installed for use by members >> Now: I am not sufficiently aware of the configuration state to comment >> as to where things are technologically. But what value would we offer >> above say someone installing Ubuntu? > > We have compilers on niflheim. But they're of little use to the average member these days. > >> ### Support with programming questions >> Past: People used to post questions regarding programming for assistance. >> Now: It's been a few years since a question like this appeared on-list. >> General questions go to StackOverflow presumably. Individual "where's my >> bug" questions are not asked. > > Probably for the best, to be honest. > > Now, if it was students asking for help with their programming subjects on the other hand... > > Actually, we gave at least two talks in the early teens (the exact years escape me now -- probably 2010 and 2011) to Programming Fundamentals students offering advice on how to do the assignments amongst other things. They were pretty well-attended, as you would imagine. Worth resurrecting. > >> ### Projects >> Past: Projects were rallying points for members, whether they came to >> fruition or not. Some that come to mind are the Olympic brick >> inscriptions, a b33r/coke powered server, long-range wifi access to >> Progsoc, and a Jukebox >> Now: No projects have happened for a long time. I wonder if we have >> sufficient cohesion / interest to be able to get consensus and momentum >> on a project... but perhaps a project is exactly what we need. > > Our last project was, I believe, in 2014 with our 'Norman' keyless access project, when we still had the room. Carlin and D'Netto can tell us more about that, if they're reading this... > > I do remember Jacob Dunk creating an app for the Verge Festival at Sydney Uni in 2013, which was awesome, because we actually wrote some software in the name of ProgSoc. > > There was the programmable bar fridge idea that was mooted at our meetup last Thursday... > >> ### Meet ups >> Past: Social gatherings, hanging out with like-minded peeps. >> Now: Unsure. The ravens' scrolls don't reach to Thailand. Subsidised / >> free events are a perennial winner. > > When I joined in 2008, we really didn't do much in the way of events. We didn't need to, really. We had our own room, and that's all we needed for our weekly meetings. > > Eventually, though, we decided to be a bit more social and community-minded. We spread our wings with talks in 2011 (see below). Then, in 2012, we held the very first UTS Programming Competition[4]. It was so successful, we held four more consecutive editions from 2013 to 2016 inclusive. Who knows, we might resume the ProgComp next year... > > Our best month ever in my opinion was March of 2014. To celebrate our 25th anniversary, we hosted not only a programming competition, but also our first, and to date, only weekend hackathon, Code2Day[5]. Yes, we actually did a HACKATHON. This is what ProgSoc has been capable of. > > To say it was a mammoth undertaking to stage not one, but TWO major events in one month, is an understatement. But we were a crack team and we pulled it off. It really was the high point of ProgSoc. I had never been prouder to have been part of the club at that point. > > Then ProgSoc's slow decline began. After losing the room in 2015, we never truly recovered. Hopefully with a concerted effort on everyone's part our fortunes will change! > >> ### Sharing of knowledge / talks >> Presentations on particular topics of clue. I'm pretty sure that this >> has happened a few times in the past, but can't remember an instance of it. >> Now: Tom mentioned that a shared space could be used for such. > > I remember 2011 being The Year of Talks for ProgSoc. We had at least four: apart from the aforementioned ProgFun talk, we did IPv6, network security and something related to web development, I think. My memories are fading. > > My colleague would like to give a talk on User Experience -- stay tuned for that! Also, we'd like to get that guy from Dev Diner[6] back for another talk -- his presentation on Virtual Reality in 2016 was well-received and reasonably well-attended. > >> * What *you* currently value about Progsoc. Why are you (still) here? > > Because I love ProgSoc with all my heart. I gave so much to it and it gave me so much in return. I got more out of it than any coursework or any other experience at UTS. I am who I am today because of ProgSoc -- that's no exaggeration. > > And I want others to have a similar experience. > >> * What you *would* value, ie what you hope Progsoc will provide. >> * What Progsoc could provide to the community (Progsoc, FoEaIT, UTS, >> Sydney, Australia...)? > > The possibilities are endless. > > Tom > > P.S. The people who should be reading this and responding (i.e. not old timers) are not likely to be subscribed to this mailing list, sadly. > > [1] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Printed_Publications#TFM > > [2] http://progsoc.org/wiki/TFM:Contents > > [3] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Printed_Publications#Past_Publications > > [4] http://progsoc.org/wiki/Programming_Competitions > > [5] http://progsoc.org/code2day/ > > [6] https://devdiner.com/ > ----------------------------------------------------- > > To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me... > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Thu Aug 31 21:27:35 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 21:27:35 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Progsoc: what do we provide of value? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5602db9c-6683-31f5-dfe6-a915bfc22fcf@progsoc.org> On 31/08/17 21:21, Pat Morgan wrote: > Do you guys not have a Progsoc room any more?? Nope. Not since 2015. > I thought one of the goals was to secure one. Heh. I think a revived active society is the main goal for now. The room will come later. Tom From tomchristmas at progsoc.org Thu Aug 31 21:59:46 2017 From: tomchristmas at progsoc.org (Tomislav Bozic) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 21:59:46 +1000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Progsoc: what do we provide of value? In-Reply-To: References: <5602db9c-6683-31f5-dfe6-a915bfc22fcf@progsoc.org> Message-ID: <2222b91d-37bc-c000-57db-441f362b8d47@progsoc.org> On 31/08/17 21:32, Pat Morgan wrote: > Oh sorry to hear that. How did that happen? We simply didn't find a suitable room in time. The faculty that was moving in to Building 10 needed the space, so out we went. We did however manage to secure a temporary room to store the Society's effects. This was the aptly-named Fortran Room, which is located within the Learning Precinct on Level 5 of the new FEIT Building. Unfortunately the room was unsuitable for holding meetings, since it was kind of small and unaccessible after 7pm (when the Learning Precinct shuts). Ultimately, our belongings were moved to a storage area in the basement of the Tower Building, where they have remained ever since. Also in 2014, we virtualised our server infrastructure and put it all on a single new server, which we hosted in the ProgSoc room. When kick-out time came in March 2015, we took the server off-campus and moved it to a co-lo site at Anchor Systems, pending a more permanent, preferably on-campus, solution. Recently, we moved the virtual instances onto servers at Digital Ocean when we could no longer host the server at the co-lo. So, not all is lost. But much still needs to be done. > I remember from 2011 they were kicking off enquiries I was one of the parties involved[1]. Just before the 2013 AGM, I was in a meeting with the Manager of Technical Services and Assets, who was responsible for allocating space for FEIT in then under construction Faculty building. I was told that space was limited in the new building, but not to worry, there was no need for us to move -- there would be a walkway between the two buildings that would lead straight to the ProgSoc room. No such walkway exists and the area that includes the erstwhile ProgSoc room is now a kitchen/lunch break area. If only we weren't so complacent and accepting then, we might have a room today. Live and learn. Tom [1] http://progsoc.org/wiki/ProgSoc_in_the_Broadway_Building > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 31 Aug. 2017, at 9:27 pm, Tomislav Bozic wrote: >> >>> On 31/08/17 21:21, Pat Morgan wrote: >>> Do you guys not have a Progsoc room any more?? >> >> Nope. Not since 2015. >> >>> I thought one of the goals was to secure one. >> >> Heh. >> >> I think a revived active society is the main goal for now. The room will come later. >> >> Tom > -- ----------------------------------------------------- To judiciously use split infinitives is fine by me... From thomas at blackbrick.com Mon Aug 7 08:21:02 2017 From: thomas at blackbrick.com (Thomas Given-Wilson) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2017 22:21:02 -0000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b24b308-b9d9-dc1f-adac-886d390928ce@blackbrick.com> On 05/08/2017 17:02, Xu Lian wrote: > No, ProgSoc is dead! That is not dead which can eternal lie... Although apparently the mail server no longer works for me to send mail to. Have the settings changed this decade? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 473 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jedd.rashbrooke at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 15:26:15 2017 From: jedd.rashbrooke at gmail.com (Jedd Rashbrooke) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 05:26:15 -0000 Subject: [ProgSoc] ProgSoc Reloaded In-Reply-To: References: <80261626-585e-5d95-41a6-84982bc2e8db@jj5.net> <00583510-b8e5-d580-a6c0-754b56db2ef8@jj5.net> <5E0FD1DC-ED55-45A1-8FFE-C7C2F2B37CBF@progsoc.org> <55260217-00c1-3633-24d2-e798e6eae469@rolandturner.com> <8a64d976-f7cd-ce2c-243b-c772cc42aa67@progsoc.org> Message-ID: Slightly off-topic ... Raz, are you responding to list, or off-list? I'm seeing no emails from you to the list -- only quotes in replies. j. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.montey.lamont at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 21:49:57 2017 From: michael.montey.lamont at gmail.com (Michael Lamont) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 11:49:57 -0000 Subject: [ProgSoc] Hello, world In-Reply-To: <63B5188E-4BAF-4B7F-8B1C-CA73B312CFF6@gmail.com> References: <4EDE4A1C-C5C9-4F3C-9C2D-E979B35067C8@gmail.com> <10e0d541-6465-cf62-9d9b-4f912c148574@jj5.net> <3d44e5e8-0f4a-92dd-8b4a-8e57bc5f840f@hale.ee> <19aec7f4-a091-4bbe-ef53-26227776c23d@jj5.net> <46c41ecb-950c-3f71-b734-a83a10956fb5@jj5.net> <891eade9-cf01-d254-5791-024fc4955f57@jj5.net> <63B5188E-4BAF-4B7F-8B1C-CA73B312CFF6@gmail.com> Message-ID: John et al As I recall from the dark ages when I joined 24 years ago, an active and public discussion was a thing on this list. Many a robust conversation was had, many opinions justified by serious individuals who had forgotten more about computing and computer science than many people ever learn. So respectfully Ravi, I can pretty much assure you that regardless of how busy you might be an what you classify as noise may well be useful to other people if you wish not to participate wield your delete key or un-subscribe. The younger folk might want to bear in mind that some of us older folk, may well be responsible for the decision to hire them or not so general politeness and respect goes a long way. Montey On 28 August 2017 at 19:33, Xu Lian wrote: > I don?t see why be toxic in your professional area is bad. There are too > many incompetent wannabe in computer science. > > > On Aug 28, 2017, at 19:30, John Elliot V wrote: > > > > Since it's a time-honoured tradition for me to have conversations with > > myself on the ProgSoc mailing list, I felt I could add... > > > > On 28/08/17 19:01, John Elliot V wrote: > >> p.s. I told Ravi he might prefer another forum. You called me toxic. > > It might be the programmer in me, but I'm pretty sure that if my comment > > counts as toxic, then by implication your comment does, too. No? > > > > -- > > E: jj5 at jj5.net > > P: +61 4 3505 7839 > > W: https://www.jj5.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Progsoc mailing list > > Progsoc at progsoc.org > > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > > > _______________________________________________ > Progsoc mailing list > Progsoc at progsoc.org > http://progsoc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progsoc > -- Michael "Montey" Lamont Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: